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The Democrat Utopia


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1 hour ago, teachercd said:

I would love to see a breakdown of where my tax dollars go and then have the option to adjust where my tax dollars go.  Something like

 

Education

Military

Fire

Police

 

whatever...and then I can still pay the same % but I can pick who gets what %.

That would be a fascinating exercise. Send every tax payer in America a survey that lists all the categories of what your tax dollars are used for. You can’t change the percentage you pay.  You can only designate where you want it to go. 
 

The results would be really interesting. 

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8 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

The only possible option I could get behind outside of those people paying their own bill is allowing student loans to be discharged or drawn down in bankruptcy court like other debt with the same type of penalties.   Otherwise if Gov is gonna pay off student loan debt then pay off my mortgage too or write me a check for the amount of my college and my kids college.  Or just pay me in Ethereum preferably. 

I would be fine changing bankruptcy laws. 

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1 hour ago, BigRedBuster said:

Why is it on the tax payer to wipe this away?

The same reason we help start businesses or building airports - because it's in our collective best interest to do so.

 

56 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

Are you really going to divide this out by age?  Do you have some data to back that up?  
 

https://www.businessinsider.com/student-loan-debt-forgiveness-quarter-of-americans-support-full-erasure-2021-2

Quote

 

There was also some division between different age groups:

  • 33% of respondents between the ages of 30 and 44 support forgiving all federal student loans, the highest percentage among age groups.
  • Conversely, 40% of respondents over 60 do not support any amount of student loan forgiveness, the highest percentage among age groups. Only 11% of respondents ages 18 to 29 don't support any forgiveness, the lowest percentage among different age groups.

 


 

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Just now, BigRedBuster said:

So, if I start a business, I can do it for free because the government will pay for it?

There's a lot of assistance available for small business from the government: https://www.uschamber.com/co/run/business-financing/government-small-business-grant-programs

 

But that's beside the point, you asked why the tax payers should help with student debt and I gave you a reason.

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11 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

There's a lot of assistance available for small business from the government: https://www.uschamber.com/co/run/business-financing/government-small-business-grant-programs

 

But that's beside the point, you asked why the tax payers should help with student debt and I gave you a reason.

I don’t know of a program where I can start a company, finance the whole thing and then the government pay for it, do you?

 

Your link doesn’t include anything like that…..unless I missed it. 
 

Especially if I did it making bad decisions and cant pay it.  

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1 hour ago, BigRedBuster said:

That would be a fascinating exercise. Send every tax payer in America a survey that lists all the categories of what your tax dollars are used for. You can’t change the percentage you pay.  You can only designate where you want it to go. 
 

The results would be really interesting. 

I agree - we should do an informal poll here --- betting there would be some severly underfunded areas that we would agree on that our current government invests in heavily.

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7 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

I don’t know of a program where I can start a company, finance the whole thing and then the government pay for it, do you?

 

Your link doesn’t include anything like that…..unless I missed it. 
 

Especially if I did it making bad decisions and cant pay it.  

You're really hung up on the "whole thing" part of this discussion. I've already said repeatedly that I'm open to partial forgiveness or reimbursement including those that have already paid back their loans.

 

But yes, the government does help businesses (including those that made bad decisions) in a variety of ways including bailouts like quantitative easing, tax incentives for starting a business in a locale (that corporations like Amazon try to exploit), and then there's bankruptcy where a business can rack up lots of debt and then the government says they don't have to pay that debt back.

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People get hung up on social programs being giveaways that somehow undermine hard-working Americans and free-enterprise values. 

 

And yeah.....if you had to propose Social Security today, it would die immediately in a cloud of communism. 

 

But if you run a big company and support capitalism, you understand that your continued success benefits hugely from a social safety net and other provisions that ensure social stability. Those millions of Americans who get government assistance are your employees, your customers, and the citizens in your community. The federal funds that go out to these so-called "takers" are returned to the makers in various short- and long-term ways that we rarely talk about.

 

Yesterday Joe Biden signed a $768 billion defense spending bill. Apparently no one shouted "but how will we pay for that!"

 

If it went out to a taxpayer vote, how does the military fare against public schools? 

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10 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

People get hung up on social programs being giveaways that somehow undermine hard-working Americans and free-enterprise values. 

 

And yeah.....if you had to propose Social Security today, it would die immediately in a cloud of communism. 

 

But if you run a big company and support capitalism, you understand that your continued success benefits hugely from a social safety net and other provisions that ensure social stability. Those millions of Americans who get government assistance are your employees, your customers, and the citizens in your community. The federal funds that go out to these so-called "takers" are returned to the makers in various short- and long-term ways that we rarely talk about.

 

Yesterday Joe Biden signed a $768 billion defense spending bill. Apparently no one shouted "but how will we pay for that!"

 

If it went out to a taxpayer vote, how does the military fare against public schools? 

I would guess public schools would be much better off and we would still have the worlds strongest military by too much.

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I really don’t have a huge problem with the social safety net programs. What I do have a problem with is the lack of efficiency, waste and the lack of transparency and bait & switch tactics.

 

If you’re going to run a social security retirement program, then GD it keep your fingers out of it and keep it viable. There is absolutely no reason it shouldn’t be self sustaining and actually turn a profit. I could’ve retired extremely comfortably ten years ago if I had been in control of even 50% of what I’ve paid into soc sec.

 

Like I’ve said, I’m all for steps to make a college education more affordable. But there needs to be some equity in it for everyone and not just a bail out fund for those who overspent on their education. The actual solution lies in people refusing to partake in the current system. Quit paying $50-$100k to obtain a job that only requires rudimentary math and communication skills. The cost will come down and employers will start being more realistic with their actual job requirements. I would also like to see some changes in how colleges operate if we’re going to start funneling more taxpayer dollars into those institutions.
 

IMO we collect plenty of taxes to pay for everything we need or could want. But the revenue generation is not equitable and the management of those funds is so piss poor we only get a fraction of the possible benefit.

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Funny because as contributions to funding higher learning, by the public taxpayer, the more loans have been taken by students and the most coming around the Great Recession when more people were unlikely to find jobs anyway. Also, more and more total percentage of loans are being taken out by parents of students.

 

image.png.30ff0c19245b0eaa2d2f47ad9be51002.png

Breakdown of types of loans.

Spoiler

The various federal loan programs have experienced different trends over the past decade.

  • Unsubsidized Stafford Loans. These loans grew by $16 billion between 2008 and 2018, or 50 percent in inflation-adjusted terms, to almost $49 billion. The program caps the amount a student can take out—as low as $5,500 per year for a freshman dependent undergraduate—a student who reports both their own and their parent or guardian’s information on required forms—and as high as $20,500 for a graduate student.[40] Part of the increase in recent years may be due to increasing loan limits as well as the elimination of the subsidized loan program for graduate students.[41]
  • Grad PLUS. These loans began in 2006 and grew from an inflation-adjusted $2.5 billion in 2007 (the first year for which data are available) to $6.6 billion in 2018, a 182 percent increase.[42]
  • Parent PLUS. These loans grew by $3.7 billion (40 percent) in inflation-adjusted terms between 2008 and 2018 to $12.8 billion.
  • Perkins Loans. Lending in this program for low-income students fell by more than $800 million, or 51 percent, between 2008 and 2018 in inflation-adjusted terms.[43] Congress did not renew the program, and it expired at the end of fiscal 2017, with final disbursements permitted through June 30, 2018. Loan issuances in 2018 were around $800 million.[44]
  • Subsidized Stafford Loans. Federal lending under the subsidized Stafford Loan program fell by $13.6 billion, or 39 percent in inflation-adjusted terms, between 2008 and 2018, to about $21 billion. These loans are based on financial need, and the Department of Education pays the interest on loans for students who are enrolled at least half-time, have left school or graduated in the past six months, or have elected to defer payments.[45] The subsidized Stafford loan limit for undergraduates is $23,000; this loan was eliminated for graduate students in 2012, which may account for part of the decrease in these loans in recent years.

 

Funding for higher learning hasn't recovered from the .com bubble in early 2000's, while enrollment has increased due to the need for more educated workforce in general, with an enrollment bubble around the Great Recession.

Public FTE enrollment, education appropriations per FTE, and net tuition revenue per FTE, U.S., FY 1995-2020 (Constant dollars) / Photo credit: SHEEO

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7 hours ago, BigRedBuster said:

That would be a fascinating exercise. Send every tax payer in America a survey that lists all the categories of what your tax dollars are used for. You can’t change the percentage you pay.  You can only designate where you want it to go. 
 

The results would be really interesting. 

What can I say...I am a fascinating person!

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