Healthcare Reform

[deedsker]

30 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

Are you talking about VSP (Vision insurance) or are you talking about medical insurance?  2 vastly different things. 

I forgot that I pay extra to have VSP that outlines exactly how useless it is. So yeah, I pay for two insurance providers to not be covered for what I was talking about.

[RedDenver]

11 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

Ummm..less than 60 day wait for basically free eye surgery isn’t really an extreme wait time.  Especially considering that what time is less than the Canadian and European model. 

You realize that undermines your argument that single-payer has longer wait times since the 60 days is itself a single-payer system? And that's assuming all your other claims on wait times are true.

[Archy1221]

10 minutes ago, deedsker said:

I forgot that I pay extra to have VSP that outlines exactly how useless it is. So yeah, I pay for two insurance providers to not be covered for what I was talking about.

You are covered for exactly what you were talking about.  If you develop cataracts, your insurance plan will cover its portion of the surgery.  And you didn’t even need the good insurance. The bad ones do too 
 

And VSP which covers a prescription is very cheap.  I’m guessing a couple dollars a month ( or less than one Starbucks latte a month) 

[Archy1221]

21 hours ago, RedDenver said:

You realize that undermines your argument that single-payer has longer wait times since the 60 days is itself a single-payer system? And that's assuming all your other claims on wait times are true.

Sometime it’s amazing the dribble you post just to try to make an argument.   we don’t have single payer in the US.  We have multiple payers.  
 

Whatever town, city you live in and call your local cataract surgeon and ask the next available date you can get scheduled for an evaluation and surgery.  I’m extremely confident in the data I presented. 

[RedDenver]

46 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

Sometime it’s amazing the dribble you post just to try to make an argument.   we don’t have single payer in the US.  We have multiple payers.  
 

Whatever town, city you live in and call your local cataract surgeon and ask the next available date you can get scheduled for an evaluation and surgery.  I’m extremely confident in the data I presented. 

You claimed that people that cannot afford care won't wait longer than about 60 days because of Medicare. Is Medicare a single-payer system?

 

To help you remember:

 

22 hours ago, Archy1221 said:

23 hours ago, RedDenver said:

How long is the wait for Americans that can't afford the initial ophthalmologist visit let alone the surgery?

Probably closer to 60 days.  They would be covered by Medicaid or even free clinic surgery.  

 

[Archy1221]

32 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

You claimed that people that cannot afford care won't wait longer than about 60 days because of Medicare. Is Medicare a single-payer system?

 

To help you remember:

 

 

Ummmm...please re-read.  As your post shows:

1) I never said people won’t wait longer than 60 days.  I said the wait will be closer to 60 days.

2) I referenced Medicaid and free clinics, not Medicare. 

3) There are many different private payers in our system of healthcare, there are government payers in our system of healthcare, there are public/private payers in our system of healthcare.   We don’t have single payer!   

[RedDenver]

6 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

Ummmm...please re-read.  As your post shows:

1) I never said people won’t wait longer than 60 days.  I said the wait will be closer to 60 days.

Yes, that's why I said "about 60 days" but I can rephrase if that makes it more inline with what you said.

6 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

2) I referenced Medicaid and free clinics, not Medicare. 

Fair enough. Is Medicaid a single-payer system?

6 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

3) There are many different private payers in our system of healthcare, there are government payers in our system of healthcare, there are public/private payers in our system of healthcare.   We don’t have single payer!   

You're missing my point. I think our current system sucks and that a single-payer system would be better. You're bringing up wait times for a single-payer system, which I'm pointing out that your stats aren't taking into account the people that wait forever because they cannot afford our current system. To which you're saying that those people won't wait forever because there's a system that will pay for them - and that fallback system is a single-payer system. You see why that strengthens my argument and weakens yours?

[RedDenver]

 

[Archy1221]

22 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

Yes, that's why I said "about 60 days" but I can rephrase if that makes it more inline with what you said.

Fair enough. Is Medicaid a single-payer system?

You're missing my point. I think our current system sucks and that a single-payer system would be better. You're bringing up wait times for a single-payer system, which I'm pointing out that your stats aren't taking into account the people that wait forever because they cannot afford our current system. To which you're saying that those people won't wait forever because there's a system that will pay for them - and that fallback system is a single-payer system. You see why that strengthens my argument and weakens yours?

Is UHC a single payer system?  Everyone who has UHC has their claims paid by them.  
 

The answer is off course not.  UHC is a payer within in a group of payers of our healthcare system.  
 

we don’t have single payer healthcare and hopefully we never will.  
 

I will continue to ask if people will do this:  Ask your doctors that work in private clinics and see what they think about single payer healthcare/M4A.  The providers are essential here, if you have a brain drain of providers because it is no longer worth it to practice medicine you end up with worse healthcare and longer wait times. 

[Archy1221]

3 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

 

Apples are apples and oranges are oranges.  Comparing US to Norway no bueno. 

[RedDenver]

1 minute ago, Archy1221 said:

Is UHC a single payer system?  Everyone who has UHC has their claims paid by them.  
 

The answer is off course not.  UHC is a payer within in a group of payers of our healthcare system.  

UHC is not a single-payer because not everyone is covered. Compare that to your claim about Medicaid covering everyone who cannot afford care. If your claim is that not everyone will be covered by Medicaid, then we're back to my original statement that wait times for people who cannot pay are forever.

 

1 minute ago, Archy1221 said:

we don’t have single payer healthcare and hopefully we never will.  
 

I will continue to ask if people will do this:  Ask your doctors that work in private clinics and see what they think about single payer healthcare/M4A.  The providers are essential here, if you have a brain drain of providers because it is no longer worth it to practice medicine you end up with worse healthcare and longer wait times. 

I've tried your experiment: I work with doctors, nurses, and clinicians. Every single one of them says a single-payer system would be better.

 

The brain drain claim would show up in the other 31 OECD countries that have single-payer, but that hasn't happened. And healthcare outcomes are actually mediocre or worse in the US.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/single-payer-healthcare-pluses-minuses-means-201606279835

Quote

Despite spending more on healthcare than comparable countries, the U.S. has the lowest life expectancy and performs poorly on a variety of health outcomes.

https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/article/single-payer-system-would-reduce-us-health-care-costs/2012-11

Quote

Though our clinical outcomes are mediocre by comparison [1], the average per capita cost of health care in the United States is twice that of other modern nations [2]. Increasingly, these costs are being borne by patients and government, driving personal bankruptcies and ever more austere public policies [3, 4]. Under the ACA, 30 million people will still have no coverage [5], and countless more will have inadequate coverage [1].

 

[Archy1221]

12 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

I've tried your experiment: I work with doctors, nurses, and clinicians. Every single one of them says a single-payer system would be better.

Sorry but I find that hard to believe that EVERY single person believes that way and quite frankly that leads me to believe you didn’t try.  
 

comparing life expectancy rates amongst countries can be like comparing apples to oranges.  Just look at how each country classifies infant mortality for starters. Then take into account diet. Then take into account the dollars spent on the last year of life here vs other countries.  
 

 

[Archy1221]

22 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

UHC is not a single-payer because not everyone is covered. Compare that to your claim about Medicaid covering everyone who cannot afford care. If your claim is that not everyone will be covered by Medicaid, then we're back to my original statement that wait times for people who cannot pay are forever.

You say you work with doctors, nurses, and clinicians yet seem to not understand basic facts about the payer system.  
 

By your standards UHC, or Aetna, or the Blues are each considered a single payer system because everyone who has insurance through one of those specific plans gets the payers portion of the billables paid for by that plan.  

[RedDenver]

4 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

Sorry but I find that hard to believe that EVERY single person believes that way and quite frankly that leads me to believe you didn’t try.  

It's not like I work with these people and talk to them about stuff like the current healthcare system because we work at a healthcare company. The results don't match your preconceived beliefs, so I must be lying.

4 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

comparing life expectancy rates amongst countries can be like comparing apples to oranges.  Just look at how each country classifies infant mortality for starters. Then take into account diet. Then take into account the dollars spent on the last year of life here vs other countries.  

No comparison is ever going to be perfect. But throwing up your hands and saying we can't compare at all is ridiculous, especially given you previously posted that single-payer will have worse outcomes.

[RedDenver]

8 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

You say you work with doctors, nurses, and clinicians yet seem to not understand basic facts about the payer system.  
 

By your standards UHC, or Aetna, or the Blues are each considered a single payer system because everyone who has insurance through one of those specific plans gets the payers portion of the billables paid for by that plan.  

Then back to your original claim about wait times so I can understand your argument here: Do all (or nearly all if you prefer) people that cannot afford care in our current system eventually get care or not?