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2 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

The story doesn’t really give a reasoning behind their conclusions except we have higher incidents of heart disease (terrible diets) and cancer.  Along with higher gun deaths and total car deaths (rates per mile aren’t different). 

And higher child mortality and in fact every age group:

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According to a new working paper released by the National Bureau of Economic Research, Americans now die earlier than their European counterparts, no matter what age you’re looking at. Compared with Europeans, American babies are more likely to die before they turn 5, American teens are more likely to die before they turn 20, and American adults are more likely to die before they turn 65. At every age, living in the United States carries a higher risk of mortality. This is America’s unsung death penalty, and it adds up. Average life expectancy surged above 80 years old in just about every Western European country in the 2010s, including Portugal, Spain, France, Italy, Germany, the U.K., Denmark, and Switzerland. In the U.S., by contrast, the average life span has never exceeded 79—and now it’s just taken a historic tumble.

 

It really undermines the argument that the current healthcare system in the US is really good.

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5 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

And higher child mortality and in fact every age group

But they didn’t give reasons why.  They didn’t separate out by cause of death.  And so didn’t see the data on how they classify an infancy death.  Some countries don’t classify a death until 2 weeks after birth.  Some countries count an infant death the moment it’s born.  
 

It would just be nice to see the data so conclusions could be made and discussions on a solution could be had 

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3 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

But they didn’t give reasons why.  They didn’t separate out by cause of death.  And so didn’t see the data on how they classify an infancy death.  Some countries don’t classify a death until 2 weeks after birth.  Some countries count an infant death the moment it’s born.  
 

It would just be nice to see the data so conclusions could be made and discussions on a solution could be had 

Sure, more detailed data would be useful, but when the data shows every age group doing more poorly than other countries, then the distinction between 2 weeks and 4 weeks or even 4 months is far less important.

 

EDIT: Note that the article is using the age group of <5 years old, not a distinction for infants.

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8 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

And higher child mortality and in fact every age group:

 

It really undermines the argument that the current healthcare system in the US is really good.

Ehh, not necessarily.   If 70% of our population eats like s#!t for 60 years, even the best hospital systems are going to have trouble getting those folks to live past 75.  
 

As shown in the paper, reducing our violent crime rate had an impact on the mortality rate.  That doesn’t have much to do with the healthcare system in general outside of showing how good trauma centers are at saving someone I guess. 
 

Are cancer rates equal across countries.  What are the the survival years in cancer patients across each country?  That would be interesting to know to see how well a hospital system increases someone’s life span after being diagnosed with cancer.  

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2 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

Ehh, not necessarily.   If 70% of our population eats like s#!t for 60 years, even the best hospital systems are going to have trouble getting those folks to live past 75.  
 

As shown in the paper, reducing our violent crime rate had an impact on the mortality rate.  That doesn’t have much to do with the healthcare system in general outside of showing how good trauma centers are at saving someone I guess. 
 

Are cancer rates equal across countries.  What are the the survival years in cancer patients across each country?  That would be interesting to know to see how well a hospital system increases someone’s life span after being diagnosed with cancer.  

I think this is something we can all agree on.

 

But I also think if people had better access to affordable and routine preventative care they might be able to realize their diets and exercise habits are sorely lacking and be able to make improvements (if they choose) sooner.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

Sure, more detailed data would be useful, but when the data shows every age group doing more poorly than other countries, then the distinction between 2 weeks and 4 weeks or even 4 months is far less important.

 

EDIT: Note that the article is using the age group of <5 years old, not a distinction for infants.

0-5 would have a big distinction if it’s not equally compared.  
12-20–what’s the suicide rate?  Cancer rate? Car death rate in this group? 
40-65–this is where diet comes into play.  People need to try and do their part too.  
Once someone turns 65, so we do as good of job in life expectancy as other countries?  I didn’t see that presented, sorry if I missed.  But that’s another important marker.  If our geriatric care is just as good or better, that shows it’s the pre-65 age group we fall behind.  Then look at those reasons, diet, lack of healthcare options, suicide/mental health, cancer, etc. 

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3 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

0-5 would have a big distinction if it’s not equally compared.  
12-20–what’s the suicide rate?  Cancer rate? Car death rate in this group? 
40-65–this is where diet comes into play.  People need to try and do their part too.  
Once someone turns 65, so we do as good of job in life expectancy as other countries?  I didn’t see that presented, sorry if I missed.  But that’s another important marker.  If our geriatric care is just as good or better, that shows it’s the pre-65 age group we fall behind.  Then look at those reasons, diet, lack of healthcare options, suicide/mental health, cancer, etc. 

Like I said, we could get more detailed with greater detail in the data, but we don't need every detail in order to draw some general conclusions. From the conclusion of the article:

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We’re a long way from a complete understanding of the American mortality penalty. But these three facts—the superior outcomes of European countries with lower poverty and universal insurance, the equality of European life spans between rich and poor areas, and the decline of the Black-white longevity gap in America coinciding with greater insurance protection and anti-poverty spending—all point to the same conclusion: Our lives and our life spans are more interconnected than you might think.

 

For decades, U.S. politicians on the right have resisted calls for income redistribution and universal insurance under the theory that inequality was a fair price to pay for freedom. But now we know that the price of inequality is paid in early death—for Americans of all races, ages, and income levels. With or without a pandemic, when it comes to keeping Americans alive, we really are all in this together.

 

 

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1 minute ago, funhusker said:

But I also think if people had better access to affordable and routine preventative care they might be able to realize their diets and exercise habits are sorely lacking and be able to make improvements (if they choose) sooner.

Don’t we kinda have that now though?  Free well check visits, free generics/$5 generics for some very common meds.  More jobs than ever offering insurance plans to compete. Expanded Medicaid services.  
 

I feel like those well-check visits should more than just blood work, blood pressure, history, height, weight.  I wish it would include nutrition advice, advice on how to look at calories, fats.  start teaching healthy eating habits in schools and why it’s important.   Michelle Obama had good intentions but her program was too extreme and not good.  Food was awful and very little of it.  Kids aren’t getting fat from eating at school.  It’s the s#!t they eat at home. 

I actually loved Obama’s rule (I believe it was him) that mandates a calorie label for foods.  I never realized how many calories I was eating a restaurant even when I thought the food was supposed to be good for us.  Made me understand more what I was eating.  

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3 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

Like I said, we could get more detailed with greater detail in the data, but we don't need every detail in order to draw some general conclusions. From the conclusion of the article:

 

Sorry for the ask, but did they look at the amount of hard core illegal drug (excluding pot) use in each of these countries?  
 

Wonder what the life expectancy would be for rich counties vs poor counties, if we excluded drug overdoses, or deaths with a drug relation from each side and murders?  If death rates are much much closer between rich/poor after excluding those causes then it’s not as much of a healthcare situation as it is a societal issue for the poorer counties. How do we educate them better to realize a better way out of their situation?  

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Just now, Archy1221 said:

Sorry for the ask, but did they look at the amount of hard core illegal drug (excluding pot) use in each of these countries?  
 

Wonder what the life expectancy would be for rich counties vs poor counties, if we excluded drug overdoses, or deaths with a drug relation from each side and murders?  If death rates are much much closer between rich/poor after excluding those causes then it’s not as much of a healthcare situation as it is a societal issue for the poorer counties. How do we educate them better to realize a better way out of their situation?  

Other countries have addiction recovery as part of their healthcare system, so that's a possibility.

 

But it seems like you're really reaching to avoid the obvious conclusion: other countries have better healthcare than the US. And given that the US spends WAY more on healthcare than those countries, US healthcare should be way better and it shouldn't even be close let alone being worse.

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3 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

other countries have better healthcare than the US.

But I’ve shown you why that just isn’t a necessarily true statement. 
 

if you have more diseased patients, your outcomes are going to worse than the system with less diseased patients.  That doesn’t really say much about each particular health system.  
 

For instance University of Kansas Medical system, gets the worst of the worst patients.  Judging their ER  death rate vs Olathe Medical center ER death rate just isn’t fair. You have to control for variables, and that is what I don’t think the study you cited is doing unless they show it.  
 

They need to show me the following between countries: 

 

Cancer survival rates/years from diagnosis

Trauma survival rates

overdose death rates

Suicide rates

How is infant mortality classified

Murder rates

Transplant survival rates 

 

Then I can make an assessment of how well each healthcare system is doing.  

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4 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

No, can you show what the effect on mortality rates are?

Sure, the US mortality is higher than the EU in drug related deaths which doesn’t really show how well a healthcare system operates.  All it’s shows is the US has more hard core drug users than the EU that kill themselves. 

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