Healthcare Reform

[teachercd]

Just now, ZRod said:

That's called adequate staffing and is the hospital's responsibility to enaure. They have regular staff and float pools to prevent issues like this, but they choose to run under staffed to meet budgets and turn a profit. The end result is burnouts and a nurse shortage.

 

You are never going to turn patients away but you can fine the hell out of the hospital.

 

It's pretty f#&%ed up when you work 12 to 13 hour days on your feet cleaning up literal s#!t, flipping 400 pound morbidly obese people, and giving them potentially lethal drugs while barely getting a piss break and having to skip your lunch break just to make sure they don't die because there's no one there to relieve you.

 

 

A lot of "normies" never think about this.  I basically have 2-3 times per day where I can get something to drink, or use the bathroom, that is it.  And I am not doing what nurses do, I am not doing real work where lives might depend on what I do.

 

I think it all comes back to firemen getting paid way more than they should but whatever.  

 

1.  Prices of regular procedures need to be POSTED so that us, the consumer, can pick where we want to go and what doctor/dentist/NP we want to use.

 

2.  Normalize pee breaks!

[BigRedBuster]

1 hour ago, ZRod said:

That's called adequate staffing and is the hospital's responsibility to ensure. They have regular staff and float pools to prevent issues like this, but they choose to run under staffed to meet budgets and turn a profit. The end result is burnout and a nurse shortage.

 

You are never going to turn patients away but you can fine the hell out of the hospital for knowingly understaffing units prior to the shift starting.

 

It's pretty f#&%ed up when you work 12 to 13 hour days on your feet cleaning up literal s#!t, flipping 400 pound morbidly obese people, and giving them potentially lethal drugs while barely getting a piss break and having to skip your lunch break just to make sure they don't die because there's no one there to relieve you.

 

 

This mantra of....just pay them more is BS anymore.  There simply isn't enough people for the jobs we need to fill....in almost every industry.  I'm not sure what it is right now, but not too long ago, the state of Nebraska had something like 4 times more job openings than people looking for jobs.  THERE SIMPLY ISN'T ENOUGH PEOPLE TO FILL THE JOBS!!!!

 

I think it was you that commented not too long ago that you didn't agree with increasing immigration because it would lower worker's pay in the US.  What a total BS thought at this point.  WE NEED PEOPLE!!!!  Nebraska is at 2.6% unemployment.  

 

And, it's laughable that you say doctors don't make enough money.  My son-in-law is in residency right now.  When he gets out (and completes his military commitment) he expects to be making 300,000 - 400,000.  You really think pay is the reason why more Drs aren't graduating from med school and going into these positions?

That's laughable.

[ZRod]

1 hour ago, BigRedBuster said:

This mantra of....just pay them more is BS anymore.  There simply isn't enough people for the jobs we need to fill....in almost every industry.  I'm not sure what it is right now, but not too long ago, the state of Nebraska had something like 4 times more job openings than people looking for jobs.  THERE SIMPLY ISN'T ENOUGH PEOPLE TO FILL THE JOBS!!!!

 

I think it was you that commented not too long ago that you didn't agree with increasing immigration because it would lower worker's pay in the US.  What a total BS thought at this point.  WE NEED PEOPLE!!!!  Nebraska is at 2.6% unemployment.  

 

And, it's laughable that you say doctors don't make enough money.  My son-in-law is in residency right now.  When he gets out (and completes his military commitment) he expects to be making 300,000 - 400,000.  You really think pay is the reason why more Drs aren't graduating from med school and going into these positions?

That's laughable.

I'm not talking about doctors. I'm talking about nurses, who make nowhere even close to that kind of money! You don't think pay makes a difference? That's crazy! Why would a nurse work for 30/hr on the regular pay roll when they can go contingent, be on a spouses benefits, select their own hours, and make 50/hr at the exact same hospital? Or when they can do travel nursing and make 8k a week? Or, or when they can leave a hospital and take a pay cut but have office hours and way less stress? Or, or, or they could do something like inject Botox a few days a week and make the same money they did nursing at the hospital?

 

I did make that comment just a page back regarding immigrans, and I stand by it. If we can find a way to ensure pay doesn't reduce, and the quality of nurses is on par then I'm all for it, but I don't think Mitt thought about that. You don't have a nursing shortage you have a burnout and poor pay problem. That's a fact.

[BigRedBuster]

8 minutes ago, ZRod said:

I'm not talking about doctors. I'm talking about nurses, who make nowhere even close to that kind of money! You don't think pay makes a difference? That's crazy! Why would a nurse work for 30/hr on the regular pay roll when they can go contingent, be on a spouses benefits, select their own hours, and make 50/hr at the exact same hospital? Or when they can do travel nursing and make 8k a week? Or, or when they can leave a hospital and take a pay cut but have office hours and way less stress? Or, or, or they could do something like inject Botox a few days a week and make the same money they did nursing at the hospital?

 

I did make that comment just a page back regarding immigrans, and I stand by it. If we can find a way to ensure pay doesn't reduce, and the quality of nurses is on par then I'm all for it, but I don't think Mitt thought about that. You don't have a nursing shortage you have a burnout and poor pay problem. That's a fact.

Fine..pay them more, get a few more in and it's just taking them away from other industries that are begging for employees.

 

In our area, EVERYONE is begging for employees.  There just isn't anyone.  I have raised my starting wage WAY above anything anyone has come close to discussing for minimum wage.  Guess what, it hasn't changed anything.  I've been told by several staffing agencies that I could raise it another $5 per hour and it still wouldn't change anything....BECAUSE THERE ISN'T ANYONE TO HIRE!!!

 

You totally are not understanding what has happened in the last probably 20 years with the birth rate not keeping up with deaths and retirement and millions more people than normal retiring per year the last couple years.  We just simply don't have the people to hire.

 

Interesting to see a Democrat go back to their anti immigration stance.  You should have loved Trump and Republicans over the last 4-6 years.

[Archy1221]

1 hour ago, BigRedBuster said:

And, it's laughable that you say doctors don't make enough money.  My son-in-law is in residency right now.  When he gets out (and completes his military commitment) he expects to be making 300,000 - 400,000.  You really think pay is the reason why more Drs aren't graduating from med school and going into these positions?

For PCP’s and Pediatric physicians that certainly can be the case.  
 

Side note, Some specialties are in in Dr. Shortfall not because of pay but because the amount of Residencies and Fellowships haven’t kept up with patient demand.  
 

@ZRodis actually right about something when it comes to nurse burnout.  Covid years really exacerbated the issue and they are leaving hospital care for medical practice care.   And the amount of money being paid for traveling nurses and things called Overtime circuits because of nurse shortfalls is crazy.  Good gigs if your family life allows for it.  

[BigRedBuster]

17 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

For PCP’s and Pediatric physicians that certainly can be the case.  
 

Side note, Some specialties are in in Dr. Shortfall not because of pay but because the amount of Residencies and Fellowships haven’t kept up with patient demand.  
 

@ZRodis actually right about something when it comes to nurse burnout.  Covid years really exacerbated the issue and they are leaving hospital care for medical practice care.   And the amount of money being paid for traveling nurses and things called Overtime circuits because of nurse shortfalls is crazy.  Good gigs if your family life allows for it.  

I completely agree that burnout is a major problem.  Heck, it was a major problem 35 years ago when I worked in healthcare and there was a nursing shortage.  How do you aid that?  More people in the profession.  I think we all agree to this point.  Where I'm disagreeing with @ZRod is how to fix that.  He says, just pay more and make things nicer at work.  I'm saying, you can sure pay more, but, there simply aren't people to hire for every job out there.  Every job could double their pay.....and we would still be short people in almost every industry...including nursing.  

 

We need people.

[ZRod]

38 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

Fine..pay them more, get a few more in and it's just taking them away from other industries that are begging for employees.

 

In our area, EVERYONE is begging for employees.  There just isn't anyone.  I have raised my starting wage WAY above anything anyone has come close to discussing for minimum wage.  Guess what, it hasn't changed anything.  I've been told by several staffing agencies that I could raise it another $5 per hour and it still wouldn't change anything....BECAUSE THERE ISN'T ANYONE TO HIRE!!!

 

You totally are not understanding what has happened in the last probably 20 years with the birth rate not keeping up with deaths and retirement and millions more people than normal retiring per year the last couple years.  We just simply don't have the people to hire.

I get it. I agree that we need to improve immigration to help the overall employee gap. You and I are on the same page there.

 

It's just Healthcare (specifically nursing) isn't the same as other industries. I gather you're in manufacturing, and have skilled workers but I assume most don't need post secondary education, or if they do it's probably training courses or a few classes that can be taken at a CC. An RN needs an accredited degree and board certification. They're not going to just lightly exit the industry after that investment, so you're not really going to suck workers from unrelated fields. If you did though it would be years in the making.

[BigRedBuster]

3 minutes ago, ZRod said:

I get it. I agree that we need to improve immigration to help the overall employee gap. You and I are on the same page there.

 

It's just Healthcare (specifically nursing) isn't the same as other industries. I gather you're in manufacturing, and have skilled workers but I assume most don't need post secondary education, or if they do it's probably training courses or a few classes that can be taken at a CC. An RN needs an accredited degree and board certification. They're not going to just lightly exit the industry after that investment, so you're not really going to suck workers from unrelated fields. If you did though it would be years in the making.

You originally stated that you didn't want immigrants because that would lower the pay.  If you're changing that now, OK.  

 

The certification can be dealt with.  There has been a lot of discussion about putting in place or increasing programs that can certify immigrants.  OK, you were a nurse in Brazil, what education do you have?  OK, take a shortened group of classes and pass the test for certification.  Some of those programs already exist.  They need expanded.

 

There are LOTS of doctors that come from other countries.  There are programs to certify them in the US.

 

This isn't anything new.  It just needs to be expanded along with increasing the capacity to process immigrants that want to come here.

 

I remember years ago, I had a friend who owned a roofing company.  I was at his shop one morning.  He was employing a number of bosnian refugees.  He was telling me about one that was actually a doctor.  He had practiced in Bosnia for probably 15-20 years.  But, at that time, there was a problem with the process of certifying him in the US.  It didn't have anything to do with if he actually was a good doctor or not.....so he was roofing.  What a waste.  

[ZRod]

12 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

You originally stated that you didn't want immigrants because that would lower the pay.  If you're changing that now, OK.  

 

The certification can be dealt with.  There has been a lot of discussion about putting in place or increasing programs that can certify immigrants.  OK, you were a nurse in Brazil, what education do you have?  OK, take a shortened group of classes and pass the test for certification.  Some of those programs already exist.  They need expanded.

 

There are LOTS of doctors that come from other countries.  There are programs to certify them in the US.

 

This isn't anything new.  It just needs to be expanded along with increasing the capacity to process immigrants that want to come here.

 

I remember years ago, I had a friend who owned a roofing company.  I was at his shop one morning.  He was employing a number of bosnian refugees.  He was telling me about one that was actually a doctor.  He had practiced in Bosnia for probably 15-20 years.  But, at that time, there was a problem with the process of certifying him in the US.  It didn't have anything to do with if he actually was a good doctor or not.....so he was roofing.  What a waste.  

My original immigrant comment was nursing specific. The issue there isn't necessarily a lack of employees, it's burnout and inadequate pay.

 

Historical though I would agree with you that we need programs to certify immigrant healthcare workers. My grandma had some amazing at home caretakers in her later years and many of them were immigrants/refugees from Bosnian as well who didn't have the means to go back to school or didn't want to at their age even though they had a degree from their home country.

[BigRedBuster]

2 minutes ago, ZRod said:

The issue there isn't necessarily a lack of employees, it's burnout and inadequate pay.

It's burnout in large part due to lack of employees.

 

I'm not going to sit here and say that many nursing positions don't need more pay.  But, what I'm saying is that even if you increase the pay, you're probably still going to have a nursing shortage.  Or....it is going to take possibly 5-10 years to improve it by the time new HS graduates or people from other industries decide to leave those and go through school to enter the nursing profession.  Meanwhile, we have many people who would LOVE to move to the US and some of those are certified nurses in their countries.  Many of those could be certified to work in the US.

[ZRod]

4 hours ago, BigRedBuster said:

It's burnout in large part due to lack of employees.

 

I'm not going to sit here and say that many nursing positions don't need more pay.  But, what I'm saying is that even if you increase the pay, you're probably still going to have a nursing shortage.  Or....it is going to take possibly 5-10 years to improve it by the time new HS graduates or people from other industries decide to leave those and go through school to enter the nursing profession.  Meanwhile, we have many people who would LOVE to move to the US and some of those are certified nurses in their countries.  Many of those could be certified to work in the US.

I think you and I are at an impasse 

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

I was actually surprised by the low entry level salaries for some high end practitioners. It was a few years ago, but here in the high priced Bay Area my buddy was shopping offers for his services as a neurologist at some prestigious med facilities, and they were talking $100 - $150K. And he had just graduated with $240,000 in student debt. 

[Archy1221]

4 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

I was actually surprised by the low entry level salaries for some high end practitioners. It was a few years ago, but here in the high priced Bay Area my buddy was shopping offers for his services as a neurologist at some prestigious med facilities, and they were talking $100 - $150K. And he had just graduated with $240,000 in student debt. 

https://www.salary.com/research/salary/alternate/neurologist-salary/san-francisco-ca
 

How much does a Neurologist make in San Francisco, CA? The average Neurologist salary in San Francisco, CA is $343,200 as of January 26, 2023, but the range typically falls between $300,000 and $403,000. Salary ranges can vary widely depending on many important factors, including education, certifications, additional skills, the number of years you have spent in your profession. With more online, real-time compensation data than any other website, Salary.com helps you determine your exact pay 

[BigRedBuster]

 

[BigRedBuster]