Poll: Abortion legality belief spectrum

[Landlord]

15 minutes ago, Fru said:

 

So the GOP is leading the charge on ending mass shootings, addressing climate change and providing universal health care in the same manner as ending abortion? 

 

 

No.

 

Are you reading actual posts? Or just rolling dice to see how you blindly respond.

[Guy Chamberlin]

6 minutes ago, Nebfanatic said:

Living in the south I'll tell you right now its dangerous to assume the lawmakers respect women. Pandering or not their legislative actions say quite a bit. I'm sorry but pandering for votes isn't a good excuse to say 'hey I know I voted on this legislation but I still respect women.' That is terribly disingenuous and the worst kind of phony imaginable. 

 

Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words. This is the crew in Alabama that decided what they'd allow the ladies to do:

 

 

[TGHusker]

1 minute ago, RedDenver said:

I'm not sure what you're trying to say with the bolded. The fetus is indeed just a mass of tissue - science does not deny this but rather confirms this. But I don't think the "just a mass of tissue" argument by the pro-choice side holds much water since every single human is a mass of tissue.

In the broad sense we are all a mass of tissue. But back in the days just after R v W the pro choice argument downplayed the 'baby' in the womb aspect stating that it is just a mass of tissue - kind of like an appendix - just something to be discarded.  Thus devaluing what was actually developing in the womb.  When in fact 'it' has a separate DNA, is developing organs, feet, toes, etc. 

[TGHusker]

44 minutes ago, Fru said:

 

Pro lifers en masse. 

Again it is a stereotype.  I would guess most pro-life people (the average person not  saying this is true of the leaders) are active in many other areas of life issues.  Many as Christians ( or even as non-Christians) are very involved in helps ministry to the homeless, to the sick, the elderly, they man food kitchens & pantries, and I could go on and on.  Making broad brush labels doesn't work for either side.  I also would not equate  pro-lifers wt the GOP.  There are pro-life Dems and independents.  The GOP was the only party to give lip service to pro-life concerns for decades. The lip service kept pro-lifers on the GOP plantation but I think many prolifers would gladly go to the Dem side if there was some balance on that side.

[Fru]

15 minutes ago, Landlord said:

 

 

No.

 

Are you reading actual posts? Or just rolling dice to see how you blindly respond.

 

I've read and replied to TG, and read and replied to you. 

[Landlord]

What does me saying there are a number of pro-life people who consistently extend that mentality to other avenues have to do with the GOP leading the way on climate change? 

[Fru]

29 minutes ago, TGHusker said:

Again it is a stereotype.  I would guess most pro-life people (the average person not  saying this is true of the leaders) are active in many other areas of life issues.  Many as Christians ( or even as non-Christians) are very involved in helps ministry to the homeless, to the sick, the elderly, they man food kitchens & pantries, and I could go on and on.  Making broad brush labels doesn't work for either side.  I also would not equate  pro-lifers wt the GOP.  There are pro-life Dems and independents.  The GOP was the only party to give lip service to pro-life concerns for decades. The lip service kept pro-lifers on the GOP plantation but I think many prolifers would gladly go to the Dem side if there was some balance on that side.

 

Deb and Ben seem to fit that characterization perfectly. 

 

https://votesmart.org/candidate/evaluations/41963/deb-fischer#.XN3NPI5Ki70

https://votesmart.org/candidate/evaluations/150182/ben-sasse/2#.XN3Rgo5Ki70

 

If all of these people that you talk about were as wholly pro life as you make them out to be, then perhaps there wouldn't be dead children in a classroom every week, or people dying for not being able to afford healthcare.

 

Are there Dems or independents championing the recent abortion issues in Ohio, Texas, Louisiana, Alabama and Georgia? 

 

[Fru]

11 minutes ago, Landlord said:

What does me saying there are a number of pro-life people who consistently extend that mentality to other avenues have to do with the GOP leading the way on climate change? 

 

The GOP is largely "Pro Life", yet cares very little about "life" in other political issues. Climate change, mass shootings, health care are all related to "the sanctity of life" and the GOP continues to refuse doing anything about those issues. Are there a handful of folks who extend that mentality entirely? Sure. I'm sure some do. But I'm yet to see lawmakers that fill that role. 

[Moiraine]

3 hours ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

 

Polling is problematic, but the 2018 Gallup Poll sounds believable: 

 

48% of Americans identify as Pro-Life.  48% identify as Pro-Choice.

 

But only 28% want Roe vs. Wade overturned. 

 

 

I'm pro life but there are a bunch of other things that I think should happen before Roe vs. Wade is ever overturned so we can lower the # of new moms there would be before they can't get an abortion. And I know these things won't happen, so therefore I'm against it getting overturned.

 

 

Things that should happen first:

Free birth control and less restrictions to getting it. I shouldn't have to go have my vagina poked and prodded every few years in order to go on the pill. Maybe I can be convinced that I'm wrong about the need but to me it seems unnecessary and it sucks.

 

Better and more sex education - it's mind boggling that the GOP is so scared of it. It works.

 

Improve help for kids in poverty, because that's what most of these kids are going to be. The GOP is also against this.

 

 

Also, abortion should always be available when it's rape, the woman's life is in danger, and probably if there's a horrible health defect in the baby.

 

And I know the government demographics are what they are but it's really annoying that so few women are involved in these decisions.

[Lil' Red]

3 hours ago, Landlord said:

The right to life does supersede those other two when it comes to people. Legally we don't currently consider unborn babies/fetuses people. If they are people, or if we decide they are people, then yeah, the right to life is the biggest trump card right that exists. Once again, it comes down to whether that's a human person. 

 

I think it's difficult to argue that the right to life is the ultimate trump card for a country that lacks universal healthcare and has the death penalty.  Controlling what a person can do with their own body should be part of the discussion regardless of where you fall on that issue.  For example, if the right to life really trumps all we should make kidney donations mandatory for compatible donors in cases where the potential recipient will die without one.  The potential recipient's life being at stake if they don't receive a kidney would trump any consideration of the donor's right to choose what they do with their own body since the donation most likely wouldn't jeopardize their right to life.

[Guy Chamberlin]

2 minutes ago, Moiraine said:

 

 

I'm pro life but there are a bunch of other things that I think should happen before Roe vs. Wade is ever overturned so we can lower the # of new moms there would be before they can't get an abortion. And I know these things won't happen, so therefore I'm against it getting overturned.

 

 

Things that should happen first:

Free birth control and less restrictions to getting it. I shouldn't have to go have my vagina poked and prodded every few years in order to go on the pill. Maybe I can be convinced that I'm wrong about the need but to me it seems unnecessary and it sucks.

 

Better and more sex education - it's mind boggling that the GOP is so scared of it. It works.

 

Improve help for kids in poverty, because that's what most of these kids are going to be. The GOP is also against this.

 

 

Agree. It would go a long way to bridge building for Pro Lifers to acknowledge that Planned Parenthood's first order of business is preventing unwanted pregnancies, and they've been hugely successful at this for years.  Church groups that don't hide behind abstinence have also been helpful. Education and a lack of prudery go a long way. 

 

It's bizarre to see the clock spinning back to a time of willful ignorance and/or medieval punishment, and it's not going to end well for anybody. 

[NM11046]

I just want to thank you all for being engaged and talking about this.  Obviously you know I'm a gal, and this is a topic I feel strongly about.  This last week or two has been disheartening and disgusting.  It's lifted my spirit somewhat to see a mature discussion by (mostly) men - we need you all to be as upset about this as we are.  You can see the level of respect or lack of that women are getting with this topic - with you speaking out with us we are more likely to make change.  You all have mothers, and sisters, and wives and daughters and regardless of what they might decide to do if put into a situation where terminating a pregnancy was on the table, you should not want a bunch of men sitting in a room in AL or DC or wherever to limit the options they have.  They know nothing about a woman's situation, health, health of the baby - anything.

 

So I thank you - and I ask you to please, please continue to be engaged.  It doesn't have to be a pro life or pro choice debate - this has gotten down to the right for a woman and her healthcare provider to be able to make the right decision for her and potentially an unborn child, with information that only they know.   

[Landlord]

3 hours ago, Fru said:

 

The GOP is largely "Pro Life", yet cares very little about "life" in other political issues. Climate change, mass shootings, health care are all related to "the sanctity of life" and the GOP continues to refuse doing anything about those issues. Are there a handful of folks who extend that mentality entirely? Sure. I'm sure some do. But I'm yet to see lawmakers that fill that role. 

 

 

Cool. I agree. What the hell were you asking me about again, seeing that I wasn't ever talking about the GOP?

[Atbone95]

First time poster here. 

 

Fru, I think you'd benefit from some light reading on this page: https://thebestschools.org/magazine/15-logical-fallacies-know/. lol

[knapplc]

7 hours ago, TGHusker said:

I don't disagree what you are saying.  Read my earlier post - I'm NOT making this a baby vs the women's debate.   And it shouldn't be.  I too do not like the hard rhetoric that comes from both sides.  Right now the 'prolife' side has the loud voice.  If we could get reasonable people into the mix we could settle this.  But politics doesn't produce reason, just conflict for partisan reasons.  So the debate keeps going on.  Believe me - if the SCOTUS overturns R v W, it will not be the last word.   

 

You're like the +2 to my -2 on this. I think I generally agree with you that all lives matter. That we should NOT abort fetuses, especially as a convenience.

 

But I'm a dude, as you are. And no matter what, it'll never truly be my decision to keep or abort a fetus. Where I think we differ (slightly) is that you more side with the fetus (baby) and I more side with the woman.

 

But just barely. It's a close thing. If that's a baby, it's murder. If it's just a collection of cells, it's the woman's right to choose what happens to/in her body. Neither science nor religion tells us exactly what it is. And that's why it can't be a sole decision-maker.

 

I will NEVER use abortion as a litmus test for voting ever again. It's a wedge issue, and the major political parties in this country use it as a tool to separate us.

 

All things considered, abortion is just a tragedy. It's never an easy decision for like 99% of the people who go through it.