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ScottyIce

Lindsey and Owen Hospitalized

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16 minutes ago, SUHperman said:

Bunch of UCF players commenting on this off-season circuit. 

 

 

 

Interesting..

 

I think that if you're able to do three sets of 10 reps on a squat, it wasn't that heavy. Or you're squatting high.

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6 minutes ago, DaveH said:

 

Interesting..

 

I think that if you're able to do three sets of 10 reps on a squat, it wasn't that heavy. Or you're squatting high.

I think that's where the "fairly intense" part comes in

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34 minutes ago, Mavric said:

 

As has been mentioned previously, I don't think ALL the blame can be placed on Riley.  But I think it's pretty obvious that a lot of it should be - both here and other reports.

 

"This team is as out of shape in the weight room as this staff could ever imagined. It's caused them to change the entire winter program." - Sean Callahan

Nice guy Riley the gift that keeps on giving

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2 hours ago, RedDenver said:

I assume you missed these posts:

 

 

 

 

You guys caught me. I'm ousted. I belong to the hate group of psychotic demon possessed smelly people that cure their erectile dysfunction over tweets of athletes going to the hospital for rhabdo. Didn't realize I posted in the Willfully Ignorant of Humor thread.

 

I looked for gifs that said "it is obvious that the previous coaching staff had this team woefully unprepared for the entirety of the 2017 season, in all facets. It is clear that the new administrations approach resulted in quite the opposite for a team in central Florida. Now for those who have the mental capacity to ponder the likelihood of two things being correct at once, the following conclusion shall be more than adequate. Riley's football team is not acclimated to work out at a championship level and Duval overestimated the stamina of some of his participants given the handicap of training under an insufficient regime the previous year. That doesn't mean that the new staff is doing something systematically incorrect but instead made a mistake" but I thought that might be a little on the nose, don't ya think?  

 

And to the second post, I will use this analogy. Imagine if Rosie O'donnell posted a video, telling her youtube subscribers that she hates when people make fun of her weight in the comment section. It is guaranteed that the first comment will be "When Rosie walks in front of my television I miss 3 shows" or "Rosie so fat she gave Dracula diabetes" -- Everything is a joking matter or nothing is and the best way to ensure that something IS joked about is to say that it shouldn't be. 

 

Now, back to keyboard warriors beating the crap out of straw-men they constructed. MUSH! 

Edited by LaFlamaBlanca

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22 minutes ago, DaveH said:

 

Interesting..

 

I think that if you're able to do three sets of 10 reps on a squat, it wasn't that heavy. Or you're squatting high.

My understanding is that they are doing circuit training with no breaks between lifts.   I'm guessing they are doing 3 cycles of 10 for squats. 

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1 hour ago, ScottyIce said:

 

Who are you talking to? Me? It's not that I don't think it's a serious matter. My point is that it wasn't intentional and they did take multiple precautions to try and prevent it. It was an accident. No one tried to run these two young men into the ground.


I agree with that, and with the statement that sometimes s#%t happens despite all precautions, but some were trying to minimize what happened here and it rubbed me the wrong way. With that said, I can also see how this could more easily happen when the staff is new and doesn't know the athletes, and vise-versa. It probably would be easier to tell how much is too much if you had a history with the players and knew how they typically respond to stuff.

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18 minutes ago, Stumpy1 said:

My understanding is that they are doing circuit training with no breaks between lifts.   I'm guessing they are doing 3 cycles of 10 for squats. 

Sure, I just thought it was funny that the guy in the tweet called them "heavy"

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1 hour ago, DaveH said:

 

I generally agree, but I think maybe they found a hint where this line lies for some. I hope they have some copious notes with regard to what led up to this.

 

That being said, I don't think productive training requires knowing where this line is. I have a feeling that approaching this line doesn't really help elicit the adaptation you're looking for and more than staying a good distance away.

 

I'd only additionally mention that while yes, some muscle damage is a result of productive training, muscle destruction is not. The -lysis in Rhabdomyolysis almost literally means death or at least leading to cell death. It would be good to stay away from that :) 

 

Damage and destruction are not clinical terms and have little value in differentiating between what would be expected with high intensity training and the medical condition of Rhabdomyolisis.  Eccentric contraction, resistance exercise used to develop strength, and speed-strength training methods, are all associated with rhabdo.  I don't think you can train an elite (hopefully) Division I football team without some risk of this situation.  Reasonable caution should be exerrcised, and it sounds like it was.

Football training isn't worth developing rhabdomyolysis, but, IMO, the nature of football training at a high level necessitates risking developing rhabdomyolysis...  

Edited by 307husker
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4 hours ago, DaveH said:

The thing here is that the idea that these guys could get even remotely *close* to rhabdo suggests that the programming is inappropriate. How many players did not technically have rhabdo, but were close?

 

These kids are hand picked athletes, so as usual their natural ability will cover up the BS that is prescribed to them.

 

Sure, I get it when some CrossFit hero at your local box gets rhabdo because his dime store coach doesn't know what he's doing. But we pay these guys a TON of money. We should expect better and so should their parents. 

 

 

Wouldn't it depend on the current fitness level of the student(s) athlete involved?  This was a good explanation of what happened: http://www.omaha.com/huskers/football/nebraska-coach-scott-frost-confirms-two-husker-players-were-hospitalized/article_d5929674-53a7-5d90-803e-6b4e9205ee60.html

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10 minutes ago, 307husker said:

Damage and destruction are not clinical terms and have little value in differentiating between what would be expected with high intensity training and the medical condition of Rhabdomyolisis.

Good call.

 

7 minutes ago, 307husker said:

Football training isn't worth developing rhabdomyolysis, but, IMO, the nature of football training at a high level necessitates risking developing rhabdomyolysis...  

 

I hear ya. I guess I'm not so sure about the necessity of the risk I guess. I'd think you'd be able to program at any level without a significantly elevated risk of hospitalization.  Maybe part of this is programming for individuals vs programming for the whole team at once. You're sort of assuming, by programming for the whole team or at least wide swaths of people, that they're at similar levels of training already. Due to time constraints that I'm sure exist here, programming individually may not be practical, but maybe it is.

3 minutes ago, ladyhawke said:

Wouldn't it depend on the current fitness level of the student(s) athlete involved?  This was a good explanation of what happened: http://www.omaha.com/huskers/football/nebraska-coach-scott-frost-confirms-two-husker-players-were-hospitalized/article_d5929674-53a7-5d90-803e-6b4e9205ee60.html

 

Yea, I think it would for sure.

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1 minute ago, DaveH said:

Good call.

 

 

I hear ya. I guess I'm not so sure about the necessity of the risk I guess. I'd think you'd be able to program at any level without a significantly elevated risk of hospitalization.  Maybe part of this is programming for individuals vs programming for the whole team at once. You're sort of assuming, by programming for the whole team or at least wide swaths of people, that they're at similar levels of training already. Due to time constraints that I'm sure exist here, programming individually may not be practical, but maybe it is.

 

Yea, I think it would for sure.

In the article I cited Coach Frost said: ""The workout that got them in trouble was a 32- to-36-minute weight workout. All they were doing is lifting. The workout was supposed to be longer than that, but Zach (Duval) cut it down to try and break the kids in, and I think the majority of the team reacted just fine, but there were a couple of kids who reacted poorly to it."  Then he also added: ""Zach Duval, my strength and conditioning coach, he’s been through transitions like this about five times and I have complete trust in him," Frost said. "When we got in we were a little concerned about the conditioning of the team, so they did some baseline testing, some body composition work, and actually, for how Zach would normally roll out the conditioning program, he actually backed off that quite a bit, and we still had a problem. So there was a lot of attention paid to how this would go, and as much as we tried to be attentive to how they needed to start, we still made a mistake."

  It sounds to me like they were trying to be very careful and mindful of the current state of the players, don't you?

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4 hours ago, Crazyhole said:

And this is after duval scaled back the workouts by 20% .  

From the article I read he had scaled back before they even started the workouts! ("Zach Duval, my strength and conditioning coach, he’s been through transitions like this about five times and I have complete trust in him," Frost said. "When we got in we were a little concerned about the conditioning of the team, so they did some baseline testing, some body composition work, and actually, for how Zach would normally roll out the conditioning program, he actually backed off that quite a bit, and we still had a problem. So there was a lot of attention paid to how this would go, and as much as we tried to be attentive to how they needed to start, we still made a mistake.")

http://www.omaha.com/huskers/football/nebraska-coach-scott-frost-confirms-two-husker-players-were-hospitalized/article_d5929674-53a7-5d90-803e-6b4e9205ee60.html

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1 minute ago, ladyhawke said:

In the article I cited Coach Frost said: ""The workout that got them in trouble was a 32- to-36-minute weight workout. All they were doing is lifting. The workout was supposed to be longer than that, but Zach (Duval) cut it down to try and break the kids in, and I think the majority of the team reacted just fine, but there were a couple of kids who reacted poorly to it."  Then he also added: ""Zach Duval, my strength and conditioning coach, he’s been through transitions like this about five times and I have complete trust in him," Frost said. "When we got in we were a little concerned about the conditioning of the team, so they did some baseline testing, some body composition work, and actually, for how Zach would normally roll out the conditioning program, he actually backed off that quite a bit, and we still had a problem. So there was a lot of attention paid to how this would go, and as much as we tried to be attentive to how they needed to start, we still made a mistake."

  It sounds to me like they were trying to be very careful and mindful of the current state of the players, don't you?

Sure it sounds like they tried but think about it this way.

 

If something would have really gone bad and a player was unable to play again or his life was otherwise permanently effected, would the answer of "well, we tried" be good enough? When it comes down to it, there's really no excuse. Hopefully they learned something. 

 

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Just now, DaveH said:

Sure it sounds like they tried but think about it this way.

 

If something would have really gone bad and a player was unable to play again or his life was otherwise permanently effected, would the answer of "well, we tried" be good enough? When it comes down to it, there's really no excuse. Hopefully they learned something. 

 

What else do you think they could've done? 

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Based on the facts as reported in the OWH, some responsibility has to be put on the players in this situation. Yes, the staff could have done a better job at transitioning the players into the high intensity work-outs (even though they did back off initial plans). However, if you are a college athlete and can't get through a 35 minute workout you are not in shape and did not use the month in advance to adequately prepare yourself for off-season workouts. Perhaps the NCAA should look at allowing more oversight/involvement of training staffs by non-bowl bound teams during December relating to strength and conditioning programs. 

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2 minutes ago, DaveH said:

Sure it sounds like they tried but think about it this way.

 

If something would have really gone bad and a player was unable to play again or his life was otherwise permanently effected, would the answer of "well, we tried" be good enough? When it comes down to it, there's really no excuse. Hopefully they learned something. 

 

Even the most "routine" outpatient surgery (which has a healing medical purpose) has risk, no matter how small.

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Just now, ladyhawke said:

What else do you think they could've done? 

I don't have the details of the training so I can't really say what specifically I'd do differently. Nor am I really qualified to do that.

 

I would say that I really don't think this situation should be a variable when designing a program. The state of D1 strength and conditioning in general needs to improve such that we shouldn't be left wondering if a workout will land people in the hospital. :dunno

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3 hours ago, TheSker said:

I don't think he's pointing a finger at the previous staff.

 

Well, he said the players were under-conditioned when his staff arrived. You can say it was because of the previous staff, the players, or both. Take your pick...

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And Riley let these guys skip workouts for being good little boys.  I blame this on him.  If you had any doubts that the players were allowed to be incredibly soft before, they should be gone now.

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1 minute ago, Toe said:

 

Well, he said the players were under-conditioned when his staff arrived. You can say it was because of the previous staff, the players, or both. Take your pick...

Frost did not use that to do any finger pointing though.  Frost and Duval made modifications to the conditioning program after some preliminary testing.

 

And while I believe the football program was ran more poorly under Riley than any coach in recent memory Frost is taking full responsibility.

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22 minutes ago, DaveH said:

I don't have the details of the training so I can't really say what specifically I'd do differently. Nor am I really qualified to do that.

 

I would say that I really don't think this situation should be a variable when designing a program. The state of D1 strength and conditioning in general needs to improve such that we shouldn't be left wondering if a workout will land people in the hospital. :dunno

I think there are other factors in play that are unrelated to physical exertion with those being inadequate carbohydrates, electrolyte imbalances, excessive heat, drugs or alcohol, or dehydration.  The athlete needs to also be an advocate for himself, knowing his limits and also making sure the coaches know what kind of condition he is in.  This condition is more complex than just physical exertion.  There are other variables at play. 

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29 minutes ago, DaveH said:

I don't have the details of the training so I can't really say what specifically I'd do differently. Nor am I really qualified to do that.

 

I would say that I really don't think this situation should be a variable when designing a program. The state of D1 strength and conditioning in general needs to improve such that we shouldn't be left wondering if a workout will land people in the hospital. :dunno

 

Riley had it figured out. No players overly strained on his watch ;)

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1 minute ago, Comfortably Numb said:

 

Riley had it figured out. No players overly strained on his watch ;)

Diaco could see it though......

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Man, Nebraska could have saved $375,000 a year and just posted on Huskerboard asking for a work out program for the football team.  I didn't realize how many experts there were in running a S&C program at a Major D1 college.program.  I knew this place was full of expert level head coaches (myself included).  This truly is the best board on the Internet.

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16 minutes ago, TheSker said:

Diaco could see it though......

Good one. I'll set 'em up and you knock 'em down.:lol:

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3 hours ago, Moiraine said:

They backed off from how they would normally roll out a conditioning program. Which means the team was out of shape even compared to UCF in their first year there.

Think about that for a minute. MR left this team in worse shape conditioning wise than an 0-12 UCF team.

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59 minutes ago, ladyhawke said:

What else do you think they could've done? 

That's what happens when you don't get ice cream after a work out.

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28 minutes ago, NUance said:

 

Betchya it was all those monkey rolls that did it.  

Did you watch that 2nd segment that popped up on your link? The narrator is going on and on about keeping the ball squeezed tight to your chest while getting up.......can a player with the ball in college hit the ground and then get back up with it? No. I'm trying to figure out what it is they're trying to teach them.

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24 minutes ago, MichiganDad3 said:

Think about that for a minute. MR left this team in worse shape conditioning wise than an 0-12 UCF team.

 

I blame it on scheduling. If that 0-12 UCF team had played Nebraska this year they'd likely of been 1-11.:D

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S&C is not a joke under Duval. Hell we heard some of the rumors that kids could barely do anything off the floor with correct form/explosion. Add in a lack of accountability and some excruciating workouts and this can happen. I don’t think Duval was prepared for how “out of shape” some of these kids are.

Also for what it’s worth Duval reduced the initial plan down. 

Edited by Decked
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1 hour ago, DaveH said:

Sure it sounds like they tried but think about it this way.

 

If something would have really gone bad and a player was unable to play again or his life was otherwise permanently effected, would the answer of "well, we tried" be good enough? When it comes down to it, there's really no excuse. Hopefully they learned something. 

 

 

Are you a S&C coach?

An expert in exercise physiology?

A medical professional?

What is your beef here?

Unfortunately rhabdo happens and these two are going to be fine. 

The team is way out of shape and needs to be better for next year so we don’t have another 4-8 season. 

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4 hours ago, Hedley Lamarr said:

Sounds easy compared to my days at Ft Benning 

Constant pushups, mountain climbers, burpees, more pushups, more mountain climbers, more burpees...then a few sprints...then repeat.

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This is more of an indictment on the previous strength/coaching staff than anyone else. It's hard to believe how (apparently) unprepared some of these players were for the off-season program. Good on Frost for taking accountibility on the issue, and let's just hope that it doesn't happen again, and there's no long term issues for the two players.

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4 hours ago, darkhorse85 said:

 

I think this is most levelheaded thing I've read in this thread so far.

+1

 

After reading some of the threads...it's almost like someone is blaming the coaching staff for negligence. Good lord. It happens. It wasn't intentional. But then again....everyone has it all figured out behind a screen. 

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None of us know what happened and speculating on this stuff is a nice intellectual exercise (no pun intended....okay, maybe un poco). My gut feeling is that if there were a lot more kids suffering from this (ala I_OWA), you can point at the staff. But consider this:

  1. there were only two players affected
  2. none that we know of at CFU while Duval was there
  3. the staff had previously dialed down the intensity
  4. the team's clear lack of conditioning when Duval arrived (how many players have been tapping their helmets during games over the last few years)

I'm tentatively thinking that this was more of an anomaly than anything. Now, it if continues righteous indignation is appropriate but at this stage harping at the SC staff seems premature.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Hedley Lamarr said:

There also have been reports that some nutritional supplements, as well as performance-enhancing drugs such as creatine supplements and anabolic steroids, are associated with rhabdomyolysis and kidney failure.

Athletes who push their bodies beyond their physical limits are at particular at risk for developing this disorder. For instance, people who do a lot of weight lifting may develop rhabdomyolysis if they lift more than their muscles can physically handle

I would agree with this and add that not allowing your body enough rest before your next workout can cause muscle issues.  Especially if you pushed yourself hard in the previous workout.  This injury is serious and it looks like Scott and staff take it seriously.  While none of us know the actual facts other then "fairly intense" workouts I am not willing to simply throw the S&C couch under the bus until I have a lot more of the details as to what these kids were doing day to day with their work outs, what was their current condition (in shape etc.) and were they being supervised whenever they were in the gym etc. 

Edited by San Diego Husker
Grammer

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8 hours ago, LumberJackSker said:

Isn't this also on the fault of the previous staff?

If riley and co had these guys in the shape they were supposed to be in what is the chance of something like this happening especially this soon into wirk outs?

It’s January. Glad they are ok. Serious business. Great athletes+guys trying to get a great first impression. Hope the strength staff learned a valuable lesson. 

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3 hours ago, DaveH said:

I don't have the details of the training so I can't really say what specifically I'd do differently. Nor am I really qualified to do that.

 

I would say that I really don't think this situation should be a variable when designing a program. The state of D1 strength and conditioning in general needs to improve such that we shouldn't be left wondering if a workout will land people in the hospital. :dunno

I think you’re more qualified than most on this board. I like your take 

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4 hours ago, DaveH said:

I don't have the details of the training so I can't really say what specifically I'd do differently. Nor am I really qualified to do that.

 

I would say that I really don't think this situation should be a variable when designing a program. The state of D1 strength and conditioning in general needs to improve such that we shouldn't be left wondering if a workout will land people in the hospital. :dunno

But yet you can come out and definitively say that they shouldn’t have done the program? Again, you don’t have the full details to know what precautions were taken. 

 

I feel like you can’t say one without the other. 

Edited by HuskerNBigD

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Just thought I'd drop in and provide a little information on the type of workout they were doing. Forgive me if this is all a bit vague and jumbled, but it's been a while since I've done anything with S&C and am typing this on the quick. It's called a metabolic circuit. Google "metabolic circuit huskers" and the first result will be a pdf that explains it in pretty good depth, with a full breakdown of the lifts and work:rest ratios. It was developed and used by Nebraska in I believe the 90s, and continues to be the foundational program used by coaches belonging to the Epley/Arthur coaching tree. It is the "strength" component in a split program, which I'd wager coach Duval is using and looks essentially like this ("Heavy" and "Light" just means % of 1Rm used for weight):

 

Monday Light "Power" (e.g. Clean shrugs, Hang Clean; plyometrics and speed work on the field)

Tuesday Heavy "Strength" (e.g Metabolic circuit; agility on the field)

 

Wednesday Off

 

Thursday Heavy "Power"

Friday Light "Strength"

 

It is a KILLER workout. The intensity of the lifts combined with the W:R ratio makes you feel like you are going to die. The closest thing I could compare it to is like the feeling after running a really hard 400 or 800 when you're not properly conditioned, only worse, for about 35 minutes. If you are in less than excellent shape you will not be able to complete it. Even guys who are in "good" shape will really struggle with it because of the unique and particular stress it imposes on the body. I believe at one point they wouldn't allow athletes to do it without first being in the S&C program for two years, and even after that they had to do a month's worth of preparatory workouts which were basically metabolic circuits-lite (2x10 vs 3x10, working at lower %1RM).

 

With all that said it will get results. It's almost like a cheat code for really jump starting physical development. Also, while it is akin to physical and psychological torture initially, you adapt to it pretty quick. I believe coach Duval said something to the effect that guys would be in survival mode at first, then later being able to really grab the reins and push it. That's a pretty accurate description of what the athletes will experience

 

Edited by husker07
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