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ScottyIce

Lindsey and Owen Hospitalized

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4 hours ago, dspanther05 said:

Man, Nebraska could have saved $375,000 a year and just posted on Huskerboard asking for a work out program for the football team.  I didn't realize how many experts there were in running a S&C program at a Major D1 college.program.  I knew this place was full of expert level head coaches (myself included).  This truly is the best board on the Internet.

Isn't that what this board is for? Opining on things that you are not qualified for is a past time on the internet

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you have 100+ kids doing high intensity workouts, it's likely somebody will get sick or injured. don't see this as an issue.

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As pointed out by several, there are many factors that may have contributed including, but no limited to:  previous level of conditioning, current level of hydration, certain types of carb intake, protein intake (or lack of it), supplement, the degree to which the current training regimen is different from the previous one. genetic factors, attention of staff, design of workout, and one that has not been considered recent illness (e.g., influenza).  Here is a pretty good article on exercise induced rhabdomyolysis.  It is a little technical, but I think you can still learn some good info.  If you don't care about the biochemistry, skip 2.1 and 2.2.

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20 minutes ago, HuskerNBigD said:

But yet you can come out and definitively say that they shouldn’t have done the program? Again, you don’t have the full details to know what precautions were taken. 

 

I feel like you can’t say one without the other. 

I feel like if it could land people in the hospital, it's probably a bad idea.  And we pay these guys a lot of money to know this. 

 

Bottom line is, this was a very bad mistake and should never happen again. There is just no excuse for it. It's not as if guys get rhabdo all the time and it's a completely normal outcome of hard training

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9 minutes ago, DaveH said:

I feel like if it could land people in the hospital, it's probably a bad idea.  And we pay these guys a lot of money to know this. 

 

Bottom line is, this was a very bad mistake and should never happen again. There is just no excuse for it. It's not as if guys get rhabdo all the time and it's a completely normal outcome of hard training

And they can land in the hospital playing the game football. Do you honestly believe they did not take precautions? I mean, seriously? Even as a high school coach our staff take precautions in the weight room, on the field, etc. I think it is safe to assume that college coaches at this level would take the same if not better precautions.

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3 hours ago, Decked said:

Hell we heard some of the rumors that kids could barely do anything off the floor with correct form/explosion.

 

If that's true, it would seem to lend credence to my theory that things actually started out OK under Philipp, back when Epley gave his remarks about the program, but Riley built a culture that permitted far too much slacking. Here's a quote from Philpp a few years ago, comparing his style to Dobbs's:

 

“I think our philosophies were somewhat similar but obviously some of the teaching techniques were different. They did a lot of their Olympic (weight lifting) from the hang position. We feel like it's important to be able to pull from the floor, to pick things off the ground correctly, postural-wise. It’s been a lot different for them, for sure. For the most part, I think they’re enjoying it."

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13 minutes ago, DaveH said:

I feel like if it could land people in the hospital, it's probably a bad idea.  And we pay these guys a lot of money to know this. 

 

Bottom line is, this was a very bad mistake and should never happen again. There is just no excuse for it. It's not as if guys get rhabdo all the time and it's a completely normal outcome of hard training

 

Lots of accidents could happen in the weight room that could send people to the hospital. Again, you don’t know what precautions were taken and the kids weren’t showing signs until a couple days later. They even mentioned they were taking precautions by backing off. What else could they do? Seriously, what else do you want them to do? 

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10 minutes ago, Touchdown Tommie said:

And they can land in the hospital playing the game football. Do you honestly believe they did not take precautions? I mean, seriously? Even as a high school coach our staff take precautions in the weight room, on the field, etc. I think it is safe to assume that college coaches at this level would take the same if not better precautions.

I struggle to see how the game of football, where there are risks you can't really mitigate, is the same as training, where you certainly have control over all the variables that affect the outcome and can mitigate these risks. 

 

These are not the same things. 

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3 minutes ago, HuskerNBigD said:

 

Lots of accidents could happen in the weight room that could send people to the hospital. Again, you don’t know what precautions were taken and the kids weren’t showing signs until a couple days later. They even mentioned they were taking precautions by backing off. What else could they do? Seriously, what else do you want them to do? 

Not put kids in the hospital and, instead, design a program that allows them to train productively.   I really don't think it's that big of an ask and they'd probably agree. 

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Just now, DaveH said:

I struggle to see how the game of football, where there are risks to can't really mitigate, is the same as training, where you certainly have control over all the variables that affect the outcome and can mitigate these risks. 

 

These are not the same things. 

 

 

I agree that it's a bad comparison, but the bolded isn't the case. You can never know for sure how each person is going to react to a workout. They did testing on the players before the workouts started to see how intense to make them, and Duval has implemented this several times before, presumably without this issue.

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Just now, DaveH said:

I struggle to see how the game of football, where there are risks to can't really mitigate, is the same as training, where you certainly have control over all the variables that affect the outcome and can mitigate these risks. 

 

These are not the same things. 

You do not have control over ALL variables....just not possible. I agree that this should not happen again, but to just throw stones at the staff saying they should have known this was going to happen or they should know better it just ridiculous. Things happen and sometimes you do not know they are going to happen until they happen. It is tough that two kids had their body react they did. Frost coming out saying they did evaluate the players and dialed it back a little, they had training staff in with the kids and coaches, etc should be enough for you to know they took precautions to keep the players safe. Unfortunately there was an issue. They will learn from it and move forward.

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2 minutes ago, DaveH said:

Not put kids in the hospital and, instead, design a program that allows them to train productively.   I really don't think it's that big of an ask and they'd probably agree. 

office_space_kit_mat-213x325.jpg

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2 minutes ago, Touchdown Tommie said:

You do not have control over ALL variables....just not possible. I agree that this should not happen again, but to just throw stones at the staff saying they should have known this was going to happen or they should know better it just ridiculous. Things happen and sometimes you do not know they are going to happen until they happen. It is tough that two kids had their body react they did. Frost coming out saying they did evaluate the players and dialed it back a little, they had training staff in with the kids and coaches, etc should be enough for you to know they took precautions toThey will learn from it and move forward.

I think you have enough control to not land people in the hospital. That's all.

 

I'm sure they'll learn. They have to. 

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3 minutes ago, DaveH said:

I think you have enough control to not land people in the hospital. That's all.

 

I'm sure they'll learn. They have to. 

well.. yeah.

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As far as I can tell, we all agree that no one was trying to get anyone hurt. Precautions were taken, mistakes were made, lessons learned.  And yet...4 pages

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15 minutes ago, DaveH said:

Not put kids in the hospital and, instead, design a program that allows them to train productively.   I really don't think it's that big of an ask and they'd probably agree. 

 

Pretty sure that’s what they were trying to do from the get go. 

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7 minutes ago, Jason Sitoke said:

As far as I can tell, we all agree that no one was trying to get anyone hurt. Precautions were taken, mistakes were made, lessons learned.  And yet...4 pages

Welcome to the internet? ;)

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53 minutes ago, husker07 said:

Just thought I'd drop in and provide a little information on the type of workout they were doing. Forgive me if this is all a bit vague and jumbled, but it's been a while since I've done anything with S&C and am typing this on the quick. It's called a metabolic circuit. Google "metabolic circuit huskers" and the first result will be a pdf that explains it in pretty good depth, with a full breakdown of the lifts and work:rest ratios. It was developed and used by Nebraska in I believe the 90s, and continues to be the foundational program used by coaches belonging to the Epley/Arthur coaching tree. It is the "strength" component in a split program, which I'd wager coach Duval is using and looks essentially like this ("Heavy" and "Light" just means % of 1Rm used for weight):

 

Monday Light "Power" (e.g. Clean shrugs, Hang Clean; plyometrics and speed work on the field)

Tuesday Heavy "Strength" (e.g Metabolic circuit; agility on the field)

 

Wednesday Off

 

Thursday Heavy "Power"

Friday Light "Strength"

 

It is a KILLER workout. The intensity of the lifts combined with the W:R ratio makes you feel like you are going to die. The closest thing I could compare it to is like the feeling after running a really hard 400 or 800 when you're not properly conditioned, only worse, for about 35 minutes. If you are in less than excellent shape you will not be able to complete it. Even guys who are in "good" shape will really struggle with it because of the unique and particular stress it imposes on the body. I believe at one point they wouldn't allow athletes to do it without first being in the S&C program for two years, and even after that they had to do a month's worth of preparatory workouts which were basically metabolic circuits-lite (2x10 vs 3x10, working at lower %1RM).

 

With all that said it will get results. It's almost like a cheat code for really jump starting physical development. Also, while it is akin to physical and psychological torture initially, you adapt to it pretty quick. I believe coach Duval said something to the effect that guys would be in survival mode at first, then later being able to really grab the reins and push it. That's a pretty accurate description of what the athletes will experience

 

dang.  Maybe we should be glad that only two goes made a trip to the hospital

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1 hour ago, Atbone95 said:

Well this turned into quite the annoying circle jerk 

Whats up Pivot Man...

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18 minutes ago, the.sock.puppet said:

Hope them boys is ok.

I have nothing of any substance to say to you, except that its an honor. 

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I think they’ll be okay. They got proper treatment for an ailment and 100 other players are okay, sounds like it’s working.  

 

Weight room should be where guys get broken and come out stronger. To suggest they are pushing a limit that can’t be overcome is faulty thinking. They need to be pushed, period. 

 

Pushing beyond limits is normal. Two guys got sick, they’ll be back. Learn, grow, break, come back. 

 

Destroy Rebuild.  

Edited by I am I

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Today I've learned a great many husker fans have no idea how serious rhabdo can be, will defend Frost to no end and ultimately will turn a blind eye to their own program while mocking others for the same 

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So 2 players went to the hospital out of what, 120+ plus?  If this had happened to 1/2 the team, then I'd be concerned.  Don't get me wrong I hope both are okay, but let's not create a mountain out of a molehill.

 

I tend to agree with those who are saying it was probably a combinination of poor effort from the players when the last coaching staff was here and having almost 2 months off where they probably weren't doing anything.

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6 minutes ago, MountainMan said:

Today I've learned a great many husker fans have no idea how serious rhabdo can be, will defend Frost to no end and ultimately will turn a blind eye to their own program while mocking others for the same 

 

That is not it at all.  Most of us are saying let's not panic and start bashing the new staff for one instance in which 2 players out of 120+ couldn't handle the new workouts.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Making Chimichangas said:

 

That is not it at all.  Most of us are saying let's not panic and start bashing the new staff for one instance in which 2 players out of 120+ couldn't handle the new workouts.

 

 

Im not panicking. But this is something the current staff is culpable for. 

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14 minutes ago, MountainMan said:

Im not panicking. But this is something the current staff is culpable for. 

 

Culpable for?  You act like the staff willingly and knowingly did something wrong.  They didn't.  There was a problem, it was addressed, and well over 100 players didn't have an issue.  Further, the players in question received immediate care.  They were not ignored, their symptoms weren't minimized, and they were treated appropriately.

 

You know what this thread has shown me?  That there are fans out there who will turn on a Nebraska coaching staff for the most trivial of things.  It's almost as if you're looking for an excuse to not like this staff.  Well, congrats...HCSF and his staff have been on the job now for two months and you already have your "reason"...let the vitriol flow.  /sarcasm

 

Look, I'm not trying to be rude, but I think you're over-reacting here.  However, this being the internet, carry on.

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I never have been and never will be a fan of the reasoning that because one bad thing happened, A) someone was wrong and B) something different obviously needed to be done. In fact that approach, which some are exhibiting here, severely annoys me. Like I said earlier, sometimes sh#t happens. But please keep pretending that they weren't taking the proper precautions simply because something bad happened. 

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When you see CF players getting rhabdo, it makes me wonder:  Are you training football players or Navy Seals?  Where in the game of football is a constant 32 minute 100% exertion relevant?

 

In football you train for 40 reps of 10 seconds of 100% exertion during the season.

 

 a 2 to 1 work rest ratio.  10 seconds on at least 20 seconds off.

 

In the off season you seed to stay in shape, build some aerobic foundation, build strength and flexibility.  You can work damn hard without getting rhabdo.

 

Where I played, offseason workouts were 3 times a week, 1 hour in the morning plus weights 4 times a week.  Conditioning was 1 hour of hell, consisting of stretching, plyo's, agility, and sprints plus whatever torture they felt like that week.  Puke cans were stationed at both ends of the building daily.  

You weight train for power. Weights were intense but not timed as much.  

 

No one got rhabdo.

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6 hours ago, Comfortably Numb said:

I never have been and never will be a fan of the reasoning that because one bad thing happened, A) someone was wrong and B) something different obviously needed to be done. In fact that approach, which some are exhibiting here, severely annoys me. Like I said earlier, sometimes sh#t happens. But please keep pretending that they weren't taking the proper precautions simply because something bad happened. 

Maybe you should argue with the guy who said ‘we made a mistake’ and ‘need to be smarter going forward’. 

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8 hours ago, MountainMan said:

Today I've learned a great many husker fans have no idea how serious rhabdo can be, will defend Frost to no end and ultimately will turn a blind eye to their own program while mocking others for the same 

 

Oh boy.

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7 hours ago, Making Chimichangas said:

 

Culpable for?  You act like the staff willingly and knowingly did something wrong.  They didn't.  There was a problem, it was addressed, and well over 100 players didn't have an issue.  Further, the players in question received immediate care.  They were not ignored, their symptoms weren't minimized, and they were treated appropriately.

 

You know what this thread has shown me?  That there are fans out there who will turn on a Nebraska coaching staff for the most trivial of things.  It's almost as if you're looking for an excuse to not like this staff.  Well, congrats...HCSF and his staff have been on the job now for two months and you already have your "reason"...let the vitriol flow.  /sarcasm

 

Look, I'm not trying to be rude, but I think you're over-reacting here.  However, this being the internet, carry on.

 

Wow. I've never agreed with you before...

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7 hours ago, Making Chimichangas said:

 

Culpable for?  You act like the staff willingly and knowingly did something wrong.  They didn't.  There was a problem, it was addressed, and well over 100 players didn't have an issue.  Further, the players in question received immediate care.  They were not ignored, their symptoms weren't minimized, and they were treated appropriately.

 

You know what this thread has shown me?  That there are fans out there who will turn on a Nebraska coaching staff for the most trivial of things.  It's almost as if you're looking for an excuse to not like this staff.  Well, congrats...HCSF and his staff have been on the job now for two months and you already have your "reason"...let the vitriol flow.  /sarcasm

 

Look, I'm not trying to be rude, but I think you're over-reacting here.  However, this being the internet, carry on.

+100000000. Took what? Two months for some too turn. We all know frost doesnt care about players and his staff worked them so hard they were trying to hurt them (sarcasm). To even hint at something like that is ridiculous. 

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2 minutes ago, mwj98 said:

+100000000. Took what? Two months for some too turn. We all know frost doesnt care about players and his staff worked them so hard they were trying to hurt them (sarcasm). To even hint at something like that is ridiculous. 

 

Like I said before, can em and let's start over again. We need a reason to HATE FROST and we got one now.

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8 hours ago, MountainMan said:

Today I've learned a great many husker fans have no idea how serious rhabdo can be, will defend Frost to no end and ultimately will turn a blind eye to their own program while mocking others for the same 

Or, now hear me out, a lot of people are not getting bent out of shape because:

 

1. The guys are fine.

2. We don’t know the circumstances behind it and jumping to conclusions that Duval is some kind of s#!tty strength coach because of it is just dumb.

3. Some blame probably needs to go on the players.  You knew this was coming, prepare yourself.

Edited by Football Guy Bob
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11 hours ago, BoSolich said:

you have 100+ kids doing high intensity workouts, it's likely somebody will get sick or injured. don't see this as an issue.

 

8 hours ago, Making Chimichangas said:

So 2 players went to the hospital out of what, 120+ plus?  If this had happened to 1/2 the team, then I'd be concerned.  Don't get me wrong I hope both are okay, but let's not create a mountain out of a molehill.

 

I tend to agree with those who are saying it was probably a combinination of poor effort from the players when the last coaching staff was here and having almost 2 months off where they probably weren't doing anything.

If rhabdo is unavoidable because somebody will get it, then why are there so few instances in college football? How many players total have gotten it over the last year? 5 years? I can only remember Oregon last year and Iowa a few years back. How are all those other programs avoiding rhabdo?

 

Let's not act like this is something normal that just happens. This is clearly a mistake by the coaching staff, as Frost has publicly stated. Whatever precautions the coaches took, they clearly weren't enough and/or the correct precautions. Fortunately, no one was permanently injured and we can hopefully learn from this moving forward.

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27 minutes ago, Jason Sitoke said:

Maybe you should argue with the guy who said ‘we made a mistake’ and ‘need to be smarter going forward’. 

 

Why would I argue with the guy who said something reasonable?

 

I'd rather argue with those who want to pretend this is completely "unacceptable" and that it should never ever possibly happen.

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4 minutes ago, Comfortably Numb said:

 

Why would I argue with the guy who said something reasonable?

 

I'd rather argue with those who want to pretend this is completely "unacceptable" and that it should never ever possibly happen.

Mistake=something went wrong

Smarter going forward=something different, however slightly, should be done

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8 hours ago, MountainMan said:

Today I've learned a great many husker fans have no idea how serious rhabdo can be, will defend Frost to no end and ultimately will turn a blind eye to their own program while mocking others for the same 

 

30 minutes ago, ScottyIce said:

 

Oh boy.

 

Oh boy is right. Thankfully we've only been subjected to this level of insight 19 times.

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1 minute ago, Jason Sitoke said:

Mistake=something went wrong

Smarter going forward=something different, however slightly, should be done

 

What the f#ck are you babbling on about? I know the meaning of words.

 

That is no where near the same thing as saying it should never happen and acting indignant that it did and suggesting Duval doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground.

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No one has the pitchforks out for Frost but that doesn't mean this isn't serious. We can still be excited about Frost and concerned that this happened. It shouldn't happen and it is unacceptable. Luckily Frost knows that and I have a feeling it will never happen again under his watch. Under some of yalls care we would have 2 more cases of rhabdo before the week was up, and you'd chalk it up to poor conditioning :facepalm:

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Just now, Comfortably Numb said:

...suggesting Duval doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground.

There’s your straw man. No one in this thread ever said that.  

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32 minutes ago, Football Guy Bob said:

Or, now hear me out, a lot of people are not getting bent out of shape because:

 

1. The guys are fine.

2. We don’t know the circumstances behind it and jumping to conclusions that Duval is some kind of s#!tty strength coach because of it is just dumb.

3. Some blame probably needs to go on the players.  You knew this was coming, prepare yourself.

 

Nah, seems too reasonable.

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11 hours ago, Atbone95 said:

Well this turned into quite the annoying circle jerk 

 

Yea, I honestly thought this thread was done. 

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Can we all just agree that it sucks that this happened and be glad both kids are ok, and then save the overreactions for if it happens again?

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13 hours ago, husker07 said:

I believe at one point they wouldn't allow athletes to do it without first being in the S&C program for two years, and even after that they had to do a month's worth of preparatory workouts which were basically metabolic circuits-lite (2x10 vs 3x10, working at lower %1RM).

 

 

 

I kind of think they were in a dialed down version of the preparatory workouts.

 

 

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