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Parkland, FL High School Shooting


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I don't understand the people who continually defend guns. Seriously what is the point? Honest question.

 

It also is insane to me that people think it is a better solution to change millions of people's minds than to change the system. It will never be perfect, but there are obvious steps we can take than hoping there won't be anymore mentally unstable citizens. Boy oh boy do politicians hate to go against the NRA with their politically funded agendas. 

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"But when it comes to funding, the NRA may have finally gone too far: the FBI recently launched an investigation to determine whether a Russian central banker, and Putin ally, illegally funneled money through the organization to help the Trump campaign."

 

NRA, Russia and Trump: How 'dark money' is poisoning American democracy

 

If/when this ever comes to fruition, the benefits would be two-fold: the end of Trump's presidency, AND a severe blow to the NRA (I highly doubt anything short of a zombie apocalypse will ever completely end the NRA).

Edited by schriznoeder
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32 minutes ago, schriznoeder said:

(I highly doubt anything short of a zombie apocalypse will ever completely end the NRA).

 

I believe this statement to be completely false.  A zombie apocalypse would be a major boon to the NRA.  They may have to branch out a little, though, to include chain-saws, machetes, and swords.

 

Related image

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I feel reading this thread it's important for some historical context to expand our thoughts on this. Sorry it's kinda long and grammar sucks cuz I'm on my phone

 

A. The second amendment is the result of the revolutionary war. An army comprised of of backwoods hicks and city slickers took the guns they owned. Formed militias. And over several years defeated the army of a world superpower in great Britain to establish this country.

This had a profound effect on the early years of the US and it's defense policy as it fully expected to have to fight Britain and the other colonial powers on the continent again and they expected these militias to play a huge role in those possible wars for survival thus the right to bear arms and form a militia was enshrined in the constitution.

 

An added point on those militias. The firearms they wielded were of a military grade comparable to the British firearms. Some where of an even higher quality. 

This wasn't lost on congress either, seeing it as an advantage that they didn't have to buy these arms and that their owners where already proficient in their use.

 

Fast forward to today and the second amendment is essentially the plan B in the event the US military is defeated and our foes have made it to our shores. In this doomsday scenario it's expected the citizens will take up and continue the fight red dawn style.

 

That is why the AR and other near modern weapons remain for sale and must continue to be.

 

For added context on weapons control and it's track record we turn to the Roman Empire who dabbled in it.

 

During the Republic it was a roman citizens right to defend himself. City state warfare was common at the time. And this would ultimately be a huge advantage to the Romans during the invasions of Hannibal barca who's 30,000 ish army struggled to take roman towns that raised these armed citizens into units for the cities defense.

 

Now we fast forward to the 400s AD. At an unknown time a roman emperor banned the citizens from the right to bear arms, likely out of fear of revolt over high taxes and corruption or perhaps economic mismanagement.

 

This comes back to haunt them during the barbarian invasions of the 300s and 400s. Contrary to popular belief of hundreds of thousands of barbarians spilling into the empire archeology now suggest it was probably closer to 20 to 30 thousand in a tribe with maybe 5 to 10 thousand being warriors. 

Ultimately the result was predictable. The Unarmed roman citizens fared badly. It got so bad in Moesia (modern day Bulgaria) that the province was essentially depopulated do too raiding. It's believed tens if not hundreds of thousands died in the ensuing carnage. 

 

Over the ensuing decades large swaths of land would be lost, untold numbers of unarmed citizens butchered by these small bands of barbarians who would set up their own kingdoms on the ashes.

 

Until a new emperor took the throne named Majorian.

He was a brilliant military strategist and recognized his army could no longer protect all these towns and cities and reclaim lost land.  So he reinstated a citizens right to bear arms to protect what they had left and he concentrated his army and reclaimed vast swaths of the empire until he was betrayed and killed. 

 

The ban on personal arms was reinstated not long after, and the western empire fell a few decades later with the east to follow within a millennia. 

 

There are many reasons rome fell, but the ban on the right to bear arms played a Big role in why so many cities fell and so many citizens where easily killed.

 

Then add in that some of the biggest proponents of gun control have been murderous dictators and it becomes very in appealing.

 

That being said we need to do a better job in mental healthcare and research because that has been the common pattern in all of these horrible incidents.

 

We got to do something, but history definitely advises against rash overreaction.

 

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, knapplc said:

So, this person is known by his classmates and teachers to have had mental issues.  And Trump says we're supposed to be on the lookout for these kinds of people.

 

His gun was purchased legally, despite his mental issues

[...]

How could that have happened?

[...]

Thanks, Trump!  :thumbs

 

Exactly.  I wonder if there is any support from Americans for laws that prevent the mentally ill from purchasing guns?....  Let's check a recent poll....

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2017/06/22/americas-complex-relationship-with-guns/

 

ONLY

89% of non-gun-owners

89% of gun-owners

90% of Democrats

88% of Republicans

 

would support that legislation, so it's fine that the NRA lobbies against it.  I mean, it's such a PARTISAN and CONTROVERSIAL proposal.

 

SMDH

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So Trump tweets out that the onus is on students to report odd and strange behavior of their classmates. Ok. 

 

So a student at UNL says he wants to commit acts of violence when the time is right, UNL students notify authorities but are told that nothing can be done. Nice. 

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3 hours ago, Fru said:

 

 

I tried...I really tried to watch these.  Started each one.  Made it about 3 - 4 seconds in and then the tidal wave of disgust, sadness and anger crashed over me and I just couldn't finish them.   What we are seeing is more than just lax gun law issues, more than just inefficient at best mental health care, we are now in a spot where school shootings and gun violence is now just a norm, an every day part of life.  An inconvenience that we will see on TV and then move on from and forget about in a few days until it happens again.

 

As a parent, with 3 kids in school, I no longer pray that this stops happening and I recognize being active with whom I vote for to see a change is doing absolutely nothing.  While I won't stop being active and trying to vote for people that will make that change, I now pray, that when the day comes that it happens in my community that it doesn't happen at my kids school.  That's the best I can hope for at this stage.  We are doing nothing to stop it, so now, please just don't let it impact me directly.  And that's a sick and disturbing way to deal with this type of tragedy.

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33 minutes ago, husker98 said:

I feel reading this thread it's important for some historical context to expand our thoughts on this. Sorry it's kinda long and grammar sucks cuz I'm on my phone

 

A. The second amendment is the result of the revolutionary war. An army comprised of of backwoods hicks and city slickers took the guns they owned. Formed militias. And over several years defeated the army of a world superpower in great Britain to establish this country.

This had a profound effect on the early years of the US and it's defense policy as it fully expected to have to fight Britain and the other colonial powers on the continent again and they expected these militias to play a huge role in those possible wars for survival thus the right to bear arms and form a militia was enshrined in the constitution.

 

An added point on those militias. The firearms they wielded were of a military grade comparable to the British firearms. Some where of an even higher quality. 

This wasn't lost on congress either, seeing it as an advantage that they didn't have to buy these arms and that their owners where already proficient in their use.

 

Fast forward to today and the second amendment is essentially the plan B in the event the US military is defeated and our foes have made it to our shores. In this doomsday scenario it's expected the citizens will take up and continue the fight red dawn style.

 

That is why the AR and other near modern weapons remain for sale and must continue to be.

 

For added context on weapons control and it's track record we turn to the Roman Empire who dabbled in it.

 

During the Republic it was a roman citizens right to defend himself. City state warfare was common at the time. And this would ultimately be a huge advantage to the Romans during the invasions of Hannibal barca who's 30,000 ish army struggled to take roman towns that raised these armed citizens into units for the cities defense.

 

Now we fast forward to the 400s AD. At an unknown time a roman emperor banned the citizens from the right to bear arms, likely out of fear of revolt over high taxes and corruption or perhaps economic mismanagement.

 

This comes back to haunt them during the barbarian invasions of the 300s and 400s. Contrary to popular belief of hundreds of thousands of barbarians spilling into the empire archeology now suggest it was probably closer to 20 to 30 thousand in a tribe with maybe 5 to 10 thousand being warriors. 

Ultimately the result was predictable. The Unarmed roman citizens fared badly. It got so bad in Moesia (modern day Bulgaria) that the province was essentially depopulated do too raiding. It's believed tens if not hundreds of thousands died in the ensuing carnage. 

 

Over the ensuing decades large swaths of land would be lost, untold numbers of unarmed citizens butchered by these small bands of barbarians who would set up their own kingdoms on the ashes.

 

Until a new emperor took the throne named Majorian.

He was a brilliant military strategist and recognized his army could no longer protect all these towns and cities and reclaim lost land.  So he reinstated a citizens right to bear arms to protect what they had left and he concentrated his army and reclaimed vast swaths of the empire until he was betrayed and killed. 

 

The ban on personal arms was reinstated not long after, and the western empire fell a few decades later with the east to follow within a millennia. 

 

There are many reasons rome fell, but the ban on the right to bear arms played a Big role in why so many cities fell and so many citizens where easily killed.

 

Then add in that some of the biggest proponents of gun control have been murderous dictators and it becomes very in appealing.

 

That being said we need to do a better job in mental healthcare and research because that has been the common pattern in all of these horrible incidents.

 

We got to do something, but history definitely advises against rash overreaction.

 

 

 

 

 

It's always interesting to draw parallels to the past, but many things also change.

 

The National Guard are effectively the modern militia, plus LEOs also serve this role to an extent. If a foreign adversary some how manages to defeat the US Military, it's reserve units, the National Guard, and LEOs you're pretty much f'd any way. This argument really holds no weight. Any power capable of doing that on US soil is not going to be stopped with ARs and IEDs...

Edited by ZRod
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Quote

Lyliah Skinner, a 16-year-old student who survived the Florida school shooting, said she wants to see lawmakers take action — and to stop offering thoughts and prayers.

"As our legislators and leaders, they shouldn't be offering prayers and words, because those mean nothing. We need action, because action is going to change what's happening," she said.

She said the US needs stricter gun laws and questioned teenagers' access to guns

“I would ask them if kids aren't even allowed to have their first, if they're not able to purchase their first drink with alcohol, then how are we allowed to buy guns at the age of 18 on 19?"

 

http://www.cnn.com/2018/02/15/us/florida-school-shooting-latest/?lf-content=229243055:lb-post-a358405aa388ef351808ab1d61913497@livefyre.com&hubRefSrc=permalink

 

And @BIG ERN I think the point people are making, especially when quoting politicians is how disingenuous it is for them to offer prayer and support and then literally do nothing else.  They are backhandedly screaming at politicians to do more while the politicians say all the right things and then turn around and collect multiple thousands of dollars from the NRA and do nothing to help prevent this from happening again.  And with the case of Trump, actually make easier for it to happen again.

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15 minutes ago, sho said:

 

http://www.cnn.com/2018/02/15/us/florida-school-shooting-latest/?lf-content=229243055:lb-post-a358405aa388ef351808ab1d61913497@livefyre.com&hubRefSrc=permalink

 

And @BIG ERN I think the point people are making, especially when quoting politicians is how disingenuous it is for them to offer prayer and support and then literally do nothing else.  They are backhandedly screaming at politicians to do more while the politicians say all the right things and then turn around and collect multiple thousands of dollars from the NRA and do nothing to help prevent this from happening again.  And with the case of Trump, actually make easier for it to happen again.

 

Just saying something doesn't matter - I agree. I was more speaking to the politicians who say they are Christians but aren't taking action along with their words. 

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26 minutes ago, ZRod said:

It's always interesting to draw parallels to the past, but many things also change.

 

The National Guard are effectively the modern militia, plus LEOs also serve this role to an extent. If a foreign adversary some how manages to defeat the US Military, it's reserve units, the National Guard, and LEOs you're pretty much f'd any way. This argument really holds no weight. Any power capable of doing that on US soil is not going to be stopped with ARs and IEDs...

 

Yet we failed in Vietnam. We continue to struggle in Afghanistan. 

 

No military is undefeatable. History is full of such examples. 

 

So this argument holds more weight than you think.

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Just now, husker98 said:

Yet we failed in Vietnam. We continue to struggle in Afghanistan. 

 

Because we limit(ed) our capability in those engagements. The US is entirely capable of killing every man, woman and child in Vietnam & Afghanistan, but chose not to in an effort to limit damage. 

 

A foreign adversary attacking the world's preeminent power isn't going to engage us in a limited capacity.  They are going to use the most destructive weapons in their arsenal to defeat the our military, at which point those left (Guard, Reserves, LEOs) are, as ZRod so eloquently put it, "f'd." 

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