Russia

[commando]

[commando]

translation

 

With cries of "No to war" and "Putin, go to the trenches", sources in Russia report that just today more than 500 people have been arrested in anti-war and anti-mobilization protests in major Russian cities.

 

 

 

[Moiraine]

Is this the dumbest war there has ever been?

 

It’s just a territory grab but I just don’t see how it’s going to be worth it to Russia in the end. And it’s entirely based on lies. 

[BigRedBuster]

 

[suh_fan93]

 

[Danny Bateman]

1 hour ago, Moiraine said:

Is this the dumbest war there has ever been?

 

It’s just a territory grab but I just don’t see how it’s going to be worth it to Russia in the end. And it’s entirely based on lies. 

 

I mean isn't it basically their version of Vietnam at this point?

 

I mean I'm not historian but it seems like from what I could gather with a quick search that war's various offenses and escalations lasted a lot longer than this has so far, but the demoralization of Russian ground forces,  way they're getting their asses kicked by the enemy on their soil and wavering public support domestically seem largely the same.

 

It will be fitting if this is the hill Putin dies on. A completely pointless one chosen out of sheer arrogance.

[Moiraine]

58 minutes ago, Danny Bateman said:

 

I mean isn't it basically their version of Vietnam at this point?

 

I mean I'm not historian but it seems like from what I could gather with a quick search that war's various offenses and escalations lasted a lot longer than this has so far, but the demoralization of Russian ground forces,  way they're getting their asses kicked by the enemy on their soil and wavering public support domestically seem largely the same.

 

It will be fitting if this is the hill Putin dies on. A completely pointless one chosen out of sheer arrogance.

 

 

I don’t think it’s like Vietnam. I don’t think Putin was really that concerned about the West. I think he just wants some strategic areas of Ukraine. Maybe because he’s bored. But probably because he wants the riches they would provide. The rest was just an excuse to do it. 

 

I think with Vietnam, even though it was dumb, our leaders truly were concerned about communism. 

[ZRod]

14 minutes ago, Moiraine said:

 

 

I don’t think it’s like Vietnam. I don’t think Putin was really that concerned about the West. I think he just wants some strategic areas of Ukraine. Maybe because he’s bored. But probably because he wants the riches they would provide. The rest was just an excuse to do it. 

 

I think with Vietnam, even though it was dumb, our leaders truly were concerned about communism. 

Agreed. Rightly or wrongly there was a legitimate justification for Vietnam. Not a fabricated lie. This is almost closer to our involvement in Iraq the second time.

[Moiraine]

8 minutes ago, ZRod said:

Agreed. Rightly or wrongly there was a legitimate justification for Vietnam. Not a fabricated lie. This is almost closer to our involvement in Iraq the second time.

 

 

Yes Iraq is a good one. Actually maybe more dumb than this war since they’re halfway across the world and not a former part of what we think is our territory. 

[BigRedBuster]

 

[Crusader Husker]

30 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

 

Waiting for Tiananmen Square moment....

[Guy Chamberlin]

50 minutes ago, ZRod said:

Agreed. Rightly or wrongly there was a legitimate justification for Vietnam. Not a fabricated lie. This is almost closer to our involvement in Iraq the second time.

 

Russia already had its Vietnam in Afghanistan, but Danny's parallel isn't wrong, either. Like the U.S. in Vietnam, Russia in Ukraine is about asserting its power to other global entities. A proxy war, although Russia had a better scenario for actually profiting from Ukraine. Neither Ukraine nor Vietnam posed a military threat to the invading country. Both should have been easy jobs for the overwhelming global power, but the U.S. and Russia both wildly underestimated the local resolve and their own domestic support. Russia needs to multiply Ukraine by 10 to get to the Vietnam quagmire, although it appears to be decimating its military far faster. 

 

Legitimate justification for Vietnam? That's debatable. There was genuine fear of communism in the various U.S. administrations, but there was probably more hubris: having declared a global ideological war, the U.S. could not afford to look weak. Having just shed centuries of colonial rule, Vietnam simply wanted self-determination. They actually hated communist China's attempted influence even more, and went to war with them immediately after the U.S. war. The U.S. had to travel across the world to kill people in a culture we didn't understand and a military that had never threatened us. I get the domino theory, but in some ways it's akin to Putin claiming he needs to reassemble the Soviet Union to protect Russia.

 

Fabricated lies? I mean, the U.S. did covertly green light the assassination of the South Vietnamese president, and lied about the Gulf of Tonkin as a justification for war. The CIA had confirmed the strength and resolve of North Vietnam, the Vietcong, and the support of the people to both the Johnson and Nixon administrations — the war was unwinnable — but our Presidents and statesmen told lies to the public that sound an awful lot like the propaganda from Russia these days.

 

 

[knapplc]

This is next-level trollery.

 

 

 

[ZRod]

1 hour ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

 

Russia already had its Vietnam in Afghanistan, but Danny's parallel isn't wrong, either. Like the U.S. in Vietnam, Russia in Ukraine is about asserting its power to other global entities. A proxy war, although Russia had a better scenario for actually profiting from Ukraine. Neither Ukraine nor Vietnam posed a military threat to the invading country. Both should have been easy jobs for the overwhelming global power, but the U.S. and Russia both wildly underestimated the local resolve and their own domestic support. Russia needs to multiply Ukraine by 10 to get to the Vietnam quagmire, although it appears to be decimating its military far faster. 

 

Legitimate justification for Vietnam? That's debatable. There was genuine fear of communism in the various U.S. administrations, but there was probably more hubris: having declared a global ideological war, the U.S. could not afford to look weak. Having just shed centuries of colonial rule, Vietnam simply wanted self-determination. They actually hated communist China's attempted influence even more, and went to war with them immediately after the U.S. war. The U.S. had to travel across the world to kill people in a culture we didn't understand and a military that had never threatened us. I get the domino theory, but in some ways it's akin to Putin claiming he needs to reassemble the Soviet Union to protect Russia.

 

Fabricated lies? I mean, the U.S. did covertly green light the assassination of the South Vietnamese president, and lied about the Gulf of Tonkin as a justification for war. The CIA had confirmed the strength and resolve of North Vietnam, the Vietcong, and the support of the people to both the Johnson and Nixon administrations — the war was unwinnable — but our Presidents and statesmen told lies to the public that sound an awful lot like the propaganda from Russia these days.

 

 

There are always lies and propaganda in war. I didn't mean we are the white knight saviors. Just that, like you said, we had an ideological enemy that was real that drew us into war. Not a made up Nazi enemy. But it's a very fine line, almost blurred to what Russia did. One man's guerilla is another man's freedom fighter.

[BigRedBuster]