Conservativism - the path forward

[TGHusker]

We have an thread on Republican utopia and that is serving its purpose well.  However, I wanted to create a thread on Conservatism separating it from Republicanism. 

I believe today's Republican party is doing a poor job of representing conservatism and the conservative movement should never be tied to one party but be trans-party in some respects.   The same should be true of liberalism.  Specifically, I believe Trump has co-oped conservatism and redefined it into something no longer recognizable.  It has become Trumpism in so many ways.

 

I believe it is important that American politics have 3 strong primary policy groups - conservative, moderate, and liberal.  It takes all three to make balanced policy.  When one dominates

something suffers.  However when one of these groups gets taken over by a philosophy that it traditionally is not, then the 'leaven in the dough spoils the whole loaf'.   That is what I believe has occurred.

 

I personally reject Trumpism or any 'conservative' movement based in the small mindedness of Trump.

Since the poll does not have fill in the blank options - Who do you believe can best lead conservatives out of this mess?  A current politician in DC, someone outside of DC??

 

 

The following Vox article is a good discussion jumping off point.  It is written by a left of center writer which is good.  Conservatives should be challenged to think and see through the filter of others (liberals should be as well - but that is a different thread someone else can start)  I would like to hear what you think what conservatism should look like.  I hope the left of center and moderate posters will also jump

in and give their opinion and give their opinion on how conservatism can 'correct itself' before it is too late. 

 

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/3/15/17113176/new-york-times-opinion-page-conservatism

  The real problem with the New York Times op-ed page: it’s not honest about US conservatism

 

Quote

 

In office, Trump has swerved this way and that on immigration, guns, taxes, health care, foreign policy, and trade, changing positions without warning, leaving his staff and supporters to scurry along after him, offering post-hoc justifications.

He has, admittedly, governed like an orthodox conservative (insofar as he’s gotten any governance done), but that is not from any evident commitment to, or even awareness of, the conservative intellectual tradition. It’s just that he’s weak, vain, easily influenced, and surrounded by conservative ideologues.

There cannot be an intellectual Trumpism — a Trumpist philosophy, a Trumpist argument — because Trump is devoted only to Trump, only to bringing himself glory and defeating his perceived enemies. For now, his interests overlap (mostly) with the interests of the white, suburban and rural conservative base. The only conceivable motivation to support him is tribal; the only argument a tribalist needs to reward himself and punish his enemies is, “We won.”

That means anyone who is devoted to the conservative intellectual tradition, anyone who thinks of themselves as a conservative through devotion to small government and traditional morality, has had to peel off. There is no way to pretend that Trump represents that tradition; he himself does not even try.

So how many of these “true” conservatives did there turn out to be? Almost none! A few intellectuals and writers have jumped ship (David Frum, Bill Kristol, George Will), but the Wall Street Journal, Fox, Breitbart, and the rest have happily adapted to acting as state media. For all intents and purposes, Trump commands the support and loyalty of the GOP coalition.

The ragged band devoted to the principles of conservative governing philosophy is in exile, with no home. It was, it turns out, almost entirely epiphenomenal to the movement; its roots were an inch deep.

Even the conservative lawmakers alleged to be horrified by Trump, leaking anonymously to reporters about how terrible he is, scarcely ever stand up to him, for the simple reason that he’s enormously popular with the base.

 

 

Quote

 

Trumpist conservatism is motivated not by ideas, but by resentments

So what motivates this swell of right-wing support for Trump? At this point, though many people on all sides still refuse to acknowledge it, the evidence is overwhelming: It was cultural backlash, against immigrants, minorities, uppity women, liberals, and all the other forces seen as dislodging traditional white men from their centrality in American culture.

I recommend browsing through this thread, which rounds up more than a dozen studies, papers, and surveys: http://electionado.com/canvas/1481329566223

They all point in the same direction: Race and gender had unusually high salience in the 2016 election, and what distinguished Trump supporters most of all, more than income or education, was racism and misogyny, i.e., feelings of hostility toward minorities and women.

 

 

Edited March 15, 2018 by TGHusker

[BigRedBuster]

I wanted to click on all three options for question #3.  So, I went with the first that needs to happen.

[Moiraine]

I didn't answer any of the poll questions. My perception of conservatism is mostly with the economic side and I don't agree with much of it.

 

I feel like I would be good at formulating a conservative message though. We all know the GOP base will dwindle since they are still skewed to older ages and Whites. Conservatives need to reach people who will agree with them on the economy but not drive away people with some of the other GOP philosophies. So I would suggest the following:

 

a) Legalize marijuana. And talk about it a lot.

 

b) Go back to Obama (pre-Sessions) era drug incarceration policies. This can save $.

 

c) Stop doing the NRA's bidding

 

d) Stop threatening social security and medicare. That's not going to win you points with the 30-40 year olds who have paid into it. There are easy ways to pay for these things.

 

e) Cut defense wastage. We are spending too much on it and I think we're wasting a lot too. We should be able to pay our soldiers a decent amount and still reduce funding, and still have a good military presence

 

f) If you're so pro capitalism, stop subsidizing things like oil. In fact don't subsidize anything that people are making a s#!t ton if profit off of. That's no different than welfare.

 

g) Illegal immigration has steadily decreased for 20 years now. Stop being moronic about it. Go back to Obama era policies.

 

h) Stop saying it's anti religious freedom to discriminate against gays. Religious freedom is about living without being discriminated against. It's not about the right to discriminate against others.

 

i) be the party that creates term limits. the lack of term limits is really bad for this country, imo. it means all the politicians care about is staying in power. they never have that last term (until like 20-30 years have gone by) where they can try to do the right thing.

 

 

A conservative party doesn't have to be homophobic, it doesn't have to have racist drug policies, it doesn't have to cut or remove every single safety net we have.

Edited March 15, 2018 by Moiraine

[BigRedBuster]

 

[Moiraine]

^ term limits.

 

We need to get rid of Ryan and Pelosi and McConnell.

 

And everyone else who's been in the House or Senate more than 8 years.

[RedDenver]

56 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

I wanted to click on all three options for question #3.  So, I went with the first that needs to happen.

Me too.

 

Good set of questions. I spent several minutes thinking about them before answering.

[TGHusker]

I guess I could make them all multiple choice.   --   so I made # 3 multiple wt # 2.

 

My gut tells me it will take and may need a Blue wave to turn conservatism around.  My hope is that a new voice will rise up and make that change organically.  Someone like Evan McMullian.  BRB tweet post is excellent and spot on.

[Moiraine]

16 minutes ago, TGHusker said:

I guess I could make them all multiple choice.   --   so I made # 3 multiple wt # 2.

 

My gut tells me it will take and may need a Blue wave to turn conservatism around.  My hope is that a new voice will rise up and make that change organically.  Someone like Evan McMullian.  BRB tweet post is excellent and spot on.

 

 

A blue wave might convince some for the need to change. But last time instead of being convinced they should change at all, they focused all their efforts on local elections so they could fix the maps in their favor.

 

I'm hoping time and baby boomer shrinkage will help get rid of the more bigoted part of that population.

Edited March 15, 2018 by Moiraine

[TGHusker]

2 hours ago, BigRedBuster said:

 

Evan for president!

[methodical]

It wont change.

 

trump-ism is the party's go forward path because its become the party of the intellectually lazy, those living in constant fear and outrage (ie far right media consumers), the bigoted and the christians all lead by the spineless.  The chances of any one of those groups collectively going "we didn't sign up for this" is about zero.  It was the path before trump ever came into the picture.  It's been the path since fox news and talk radio realized they'd make tons of money stirring up outrage of those people and the republicans started having to swing right to the tea party idiots to keep their seats.  They did that themselves by their gerrymandering.

 

So I have doubts that it has anything to do with candidate messaging or using common sense, or that they will ever recover from trump (nor should they).  It maybe will end when districts are drawn so they don't have to out-far-right each other but they still have their nutty propaganda machine and other right wing billionaire sociopaths that they have to kowtow to.  By now though the damage is already done, maybe not right now this year, but as soon as the boomers decline.

Edited March 15, 2018 by methodical

[BigRedBuster]

Maybe it’s being debated now. 

 

 

[Moiraine]

This could kind of go off topic but torture doesn't make sense logically to me. If I was being tortured and knew nothing, I'd start making things up just to try to get it to stop.

[methodical]

That did happen.  In several cases if I recall. 

 

It amazes me how deep the evil runs in the Cheney family.  In a sane world they should be reviled by everyone on both sides of the aisle.

[Theocritus]

@Moiraine There are million of weed related applications now a days and im just not entirely certain what the dependable onces are. At that point I ran over this one application from greenmed it appears to be so well known to many individuals is it a put stock in application? What are your contemplations about it?

[Moiraine]

12 minutes ago, Theocritus said:

@Moiraine There are million of weed related applications now a days and im just not entirely certain what the dependable onces are. At that point I ran over this one application from greenmed it appears to be so well known to many individuals is it a put stock in application? What are your contemplations about it?

 

 

I'm not sure what you mean by application since the link is about Army enrollment. It seems you're asking about medical uses(?)

 

I know for a fact marijuana can and has helped many cancer patients. Both feel better and increasing their appetites. An uber conservative father of a friend of mine used it after he got cancer and it really improved his quality of living.

 

IMO it will save us a lot of $ if we're not arresting people who are consuming something that is less detrimental than alcohol. Also, Blacks are arrested at a much higher rate for marijuana and part of the reason it was made illegal in the first place is because it was considered a Black/Hispanic drug. Alcohol was more widely consumed by Whites.

Edited March 16, 2018 by Moiraine