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Should a business owner have the right to refuse service to customers?


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Two high-profile situations have hit the news in the past couple of weeks.  First, the Supreme Court ruled on the gay wedding cake story:

 

Supreme Court rules for Colorado baker in same-sex wedding cake case

 

Then, over the weekend, we got this:

 

Sarah Huckabee Sanders asked to leave Virginia restaurant

 

Lots of opinions have been floated around about both situations.  Some feel the bakery owner's religious beliefs allow him to discern who he'll serve and why (or why not). Some feel the restaurant owner's political beliefs allow her to discern who she'll serve and why (or why not).  Some feel the opposite is true of both cases.

 

We're all familiar with signs like these:

 

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So we're all familiar with the concept of places of business refusing service, for whatever reason(s).  Is this OK?  When is/isn't it justifiable to refuse someone service?

 

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I believe, a private business should have the right to say no to a customer.   Extreme examples using the cater as example, should a black caterer be forced to make a cake for a nazi family that says "F-bomb all N-Bombs"?   No, they should have the right to say, we will not serve you.   Public positions should have to serve everyone.  For example, the state cannot have individuals denying marriage licenses because it's against the religion they believe in, but that same person, if they owned a floral shop, could say, no we won't provide flowers for a gay wedding.

As long as there is no physical harm, a business should be able to choose to do business with whomever they wish.  If it hurts their business, that's on them.  And people also the right to make those biases public knowledge so someone who doesn't share those biases can choose where to spend their money.

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I believe a business should be able to refuse to serve a customer.  I honestly think it's a legal issue and financial issue for the business.  Prime example.  I have refused to quote projects because I flat out didn't want to do business with the person.  

 

a)  I was doing a quote a project when I lived in Des Moines.  I was on the quote and in the last 10 minutes of the meeting, the home owner totally changed attitudes and was a total jack ass.  I had a bad feeling that I was being set up by the customer to be totally screwed.  I didn't even write the quote even though the guy kept leaving nasty messages for me because I wouldn't quote it.

 

b)  I didn't quote a project one time because I knew another contractor the customer screwed in paying.  

 

c)  I also have refused quoting projects because I thought the project would end up in a lawsuit some how.

 

I also know of a situation where when Ted Turner and Jane Fonda bought a ranch in the Sandhills, they went into town to the local bar.  The local bar owner was a Vietnam Vet and refused to allow Jane into his bar.  I honestly don't have a problem with that.

 

I would also have to say, that if I had to make a decision and knowing what we all know now about the case, I would probably have to side on the side of cake baker.  He didn't refuse to sell to gay people.  I just refused to be a part of that one event he wasn't comfortable with.

 

This situation with Sanders and the restaurant and the congresswoman asking for everyone to confront Trump people in public makes me uncomfortable because of where we are right now  as a country.  I don't feel one bit sorry for Sanders or anyone in the administration even if not one restaurant would serve them.  Screw them.  BUT....the tensions in America are so high right now, I think we need to pick our fights.  I think the anti Trump people can win better and cause less problems if they prove they are above the crap the Administration is spewing.

 

It seems like right now, each side is making this a race to the gutter.

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I think they definitely should be able to refuse service to someone, within the limits of what we as a society determine are protected classes.

 

With regard to the Sanders situation, I think @methodical had a good post in another thread about this:

 

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I don't particularly care if a business owner decides a trump administration official isn't welcome.  It gives them a taste of the agenda they push for others and the divisiveness they play to in order to rile up Trump's base.  They should be held accountable for what they do and the policies they push.


I saw someone tweet out something similar yesterday as well. Accountability is merely an afterthought in the Trump administration. We the people have very little if any recourse against Donald Trump or Scott Pruitt grifting from their official position, Jared Kushner screwing up his financial disclosure forms multiple times, Ivanka getting herself Chinese trademarks or SHS lying to our faces at press briefings. There's no accountability. This incident, in spite of all the pearl clutching from pundits and politicians, actually demonstrates someone effectively using leverage against a Trump admin official for their awful behavior.

 

The owner handled everything the right way. The way I heard it, she actually asked her workers, who as a group decided they were uncomfortable with Trump administration people on the basis of their anti-LGBT agenda, so the owner asked her to leave on the basis of her employees' wishes. She politely stated a moral objection to Sanders eating there & comped the cheese plate & drinks the group had already ordered. 

 

I guess I don't see how the same folks who applaud a baker's right to refuse based on religion & designed bathroom bills on the basis of gender can get upset about this.

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As discussed in the other thread - I'm uncomfortable wt people being refused service based on a purely political differences.  I say that under normal conditions.  We might be in 'unnormal times' when it comes to political partisan talk, policy, and "demigodry".  Can one however look at the Sanders situation from a moral/values situation and say that it is similar to the cake baker situation?? Evidently so.  The Red Hen owner felt it was a moral issue.  That is a judgement call.   As a private business they will take the hits positive or negative for taking the stance.   

 

 

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Here's the thing with the Sanders issue.  I don't think it actually accomplishes anything.  Seriously...what does it accomplish??
 

I'll guarantee you it doesn't change Sanders's mind on anything.  If anything, it makes her dig her heals in more by proving in her mind that the other side is unreasonable.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

Here's the thing with the Sanders issue.  I don't think it actually accomplishes anything.  Seriously...what does it accomplish??
 

I'll guarantee you it doesn't change Sanders's mind on anything.  If anything, it makes her dig her heals in more by proving in her mind that the other side is unreasonable.

 

 

 

So we shouldn't take a stand because it might make the people we're taking a stand against more resolute?

 

 

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I don't think a business should be forced to sell anything to anyone. If the business doesn't like the customer or doesn't like what the customer is requesting them to provide, sure, refuse service.  My business is quite a bit different than a public bakery or a restaurant and I would never refuse service based on political or religious grounds or some protected status (as per the examples in the OP) but I have refused to quote jobs because the customer was a dick or because I didn't feel we could provide what they were requesting in a satisfactory manner or because we were just too busy. 

 

I've got a bit of a personal problem with businesses that refuse to provide based on their religious beliefs or bigotry, orientation etc. but I think that is when we let free enterprise control and let them suffer from their own decisions. But I don't think forcing them to do something they don't want to do is a very good policy. I mean if you are a gay couple looking for a wedding cake (as an example) and the business owner has said he doesn't want to provide it, why on earth would you pursue it any further? Take your business to somebody that wants and appreciates it.

 

However, this is one I don't have a problem with- I don't think any entity should be forced to provide abortions or birth control if they do not want to. I guess Ireland just legalized abortion and they are trying to force Catholic healthcare providers to provide them. Uh yeah, good luck with that.

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2 hours ago, Comfortably Numb said:

However, this is one I don't have a problem with- I don't think any entity should be forced to provide abortions or birth control if they do not want to. I guess Ireland just legalized abortion and they are trying to force Catholic healthcare providers to provide them. Uh yeah, good luck with that.

It depends what you mean by "forced". This is one of those gray areas that seems simple on the surface (just don't force money for abortions or birth control) but is actually a very slippery slope. We're all forced to do or pay for things we don't want to. Think of all the things that people could decide are things they don't want to be forced to pay for. The easiest example is war. If I have a religious/moral/ethical aversion to war, then can I say I shouldn't be forced to pay for war? And I'm sure you can think of other examples on all parts of the political spectrum.

 

I'm not saying what people should or shouldn't be forced to do but rather just that there's nuance to that discussion. And that there's a lot of room between abortions and birth control.

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15 minutes ago, teachercd said:

What about a flipped question...would you give your business to a place that didn't believe/think/act like you do?

 

 

 

For me it depends how critical it is. I think if my contribution to a bigoted business would make or break something, my principles would take over and I'd not frequent that business.  Dollar Vote, and all that.

 

But I shop at Hobby Lobby, and once in a blue moon I get Chik-Fil-A, meaning I understand principles go so far, and convenience and ease have a say as well.

 

It's why I posed the question. It's not an easy answer. And I can see the "right" side of a lot of different arguments in these situations.

 

A professor once told my class, "Your rights end where my rights begin."  And that was a clever enough phrase when I was 18.  But that boundary isn't straight; it's a jagged edge that loops and twists around itself. 

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