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Should a business owner have the right to refuse service to customers?


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3 hours ago, HuskerInLostWages said:

I refuse service all the time, including from my own clientele.  I will NOT work on a home PC for anyone, I will not support a home PC for anyone, including my business clients.  No matter what you do, something is always missing, can't be found or just "gone" when dealing with home users who have royally f'd up their computer(normally because they are lucky to even be able to turn the damn thing on).  Any business owner should be able to deny service to anyone, anytime for any reason, they should also be able to accept the bad press and loss of business if they so choose.

 

I do not believe a business should have any public political views, a business does not have a vote, it's not a person.  Businesses should keep their political views to themselves as the company has employees who do vote, and I can promise you, not all of them have the same opinion.

In a broad sense, Citizens United basically gave corporations person-hood when it comes to campaign donations.  But that is a different topic. 

 

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Somewhat related as it goes to the topic of free speech.  The SC overturned a California law that required pro-life crisis pregnancy organizations to promote abortion.  That would be like

asking the NAACP to talk about the virtues of the KKK.  I was not aware of this case and find it abhorrent that such a law existed.  I find it incredibly concerning that the left leaning judges on the SC do not see the 1st amendment implications of the law regardless of the parties involved..  It shows their blinded loyalty to a liberal sacred cow more so to a clearly defined 1st Amendment right.  It is one thing to give full medical disclosure before a medical procedure (as should be the case of abortion providers) but another in dictating the speech of an organization that is in violation of its very reason to exist.  

 

https://www.christianpost.com/news/pro-life-leaders-react-supreme-court-striking-down-california-abortion-promotion-law-225403/page1.html
 

Quote

 

Pro-lifers are celebrating a ruling by the United States Supreme Court which held that a California law that forced crisis pregnancy centers to promote abortion was unconstitutional.

In a 5-4 decision released Tuesday, the highest court in the land decided that California's Reproductive Freedom, Accountability, Comprehensive Care, and Transparency (FACT) Act "unduly burdens protected speech."

"The unlicensed notice imposes a government-scripted, speaker-based disclosure requirement that is wholly disconnected from California's informational interest," read the majority opinion.

"California has offered no justification that the notice plausibly furthers. It targets speakers, not speech, and imposes an unduly burdensome disclosure requirement that will chill their protected speech."

 

https://www.christianpost.com/news/california-cannot-force-pro-life-centers-advertise-abortion-services-supreme-court-rules-nifla-becerra-225390/

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Thomas also wrote that the law not only forced pro-life centers to promote abortion, but to do so while diminishing their own message on pregnancy care.

"As California conceded at oral argument, a billboard for an unlicensed facility that says 'Choose Life' would have to surround that two-word statement with a 29-word statement from the government, in as many as 13 different languages," continued Thomas.

"In this way, the unlicensed notice drowns out the facility's own message. More likely, the 'detail required' by the unlicensed notice 'effectively rules out' the possibility of having such a billboard in the first place."

Thomas was joined by Chief Justice John Roberts, Justices Anthony Kennedy, Samuel Alito, and Neil Gorsuch. Justice Stephen Breyer wrote a dissent and was joined by Justices Sonia Sotomayor, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and Elena Kagan.

In 2015, California passed Assembly Bill 775 or the FACT Act. The law mandated that all licensed pregnancy health centers, among other things, include a sign that refers patients to abortion clinics.

"The notice shall state: 'California has public programs that provide immediate free or low-cost access to comprehensive family planning services (including all FDA-approved methods of contraception), prenatal care, and abortion for eligible women,'" read AB 775.

Failure to comply with the law could result in a $500 fine on the first offense and then a $1,000 fine for each offense thereafter.

In Oct. 2015, the Alliance Defending Freedom filed a complaint in district court against California over the law on behalf of a few California-based pregnancy care centers.

In Oct. 2016, a three judge panel of the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals upheld the law, agreeing with a lower court decision that the FACT Act "survives any level of scrutiny" and "does not discriminate based on viewpoint."

"Instead, the Act applies to all licensed and unlicensed facilities, regardless of what, if any, objections they may have to certain family planning services," read the Ninth Circuit opinion.

In March 2017, the ADF filed an appeal with the U.S. Supreme Court. Last November, the high court agreed to hear the appeal, with oral arguments being held in March.

"Even if you are not pro-life, do you want the government setting up its own advertising mandates for nonprofit organizations and then punishing any who disagree?" stated ADF CEO Michael Farris following oral arguments.

"The First Amendment does not allow the government to force you to speak its message. That's especially true when you are pursuing a religious mission of simply providing resources and support to women free of charge."

 

 
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4 hours ago, RedDenver said:

 

As @knapplc posted earlier (maybe it was a different thread), there's a really big difference between the baker refusing to make cakes for gay couples and the restaurant owner refusing SHS service. The first is discriminatory because it's not based on the person or their actions but rather based on a protected class. The second is about Sanders as a person and her specific actions.

 

If you want neutrality, then shouldn't you also criticize those on the right that are crying about the same issue? Hypocritical statements aren't very convincing.

 

It was already taken care of, I was just acknowledging what was omitted instead of reiterating what was already said in the quote I was responding to.

 

I appreciate calling me hypocritical which I am not.

 

i forgot I’m in the extreme left tribal echo chamber 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Coach Power'T said:

i forgot I’m in the extreme left tribal echo chamber

Good Lord.

 

If you would actually spend a little time here, you would realize there are quite a few of us that are fairly middle of the road or lean conservative.  And...on some issues, quite conservative.

 

But...flyby posts like this don't allow you to realize that.

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More on the Sanders situation. Mike Huckabee, Sarah's dad, reported that the protest to Sarah Sanders didn't stop at the Red Hen

One problem with Huckabee's statement is what I put in bold.  Trump has been a poor example of civil exchange and could be

pointed to as the person who started this recent public bad mouthing - starting in the primaries and continuing during his presidency.

 

We also have the Florida attorney general being harassed by protesters as she left the Mr Rogers movie over the weekend.  This may be off topic again-

but it just represents the ugly climate we are in.  

 

https://www.cnsnews.com/blog/craig-bannister/mike-huckabee-red-hen-owner-followed-sarah-sanders-family-across-street-heckled

 

Quote

 

While national media have reported Sarah Sanders’ ouster from the restaurant on Friday, “There’s a part of that story that has not been told,” Mike Huckabee told radio host Laura Ingraham on Monday:

“Once Sarah and her family left – of course Sarah was asked to please vacate – Sarah and her husband just went home, they’d had enough. But, the rest of her family went across the street to a different restaurant.

“The owner of the Red Hen – nobody’s told this – then followed them across the street, called people and organized a protest, yelling and screaming at them from outside the other restaurant and creating this scene.”

A family member - who is ardently anti-Trump – then went outside to confront and rebuke her fellow liberals, Huckabee says:

“One of the members of Sarah’s in-laws who were there – by the way, most of her in-laws, not her mother in-law and father in-law, but most of them are very liberal. And, one of them walked out and said: 'Look, I don’t like Trump. I’m not a supporter. I’m a far – considered liberal – but, you guys are embarrassing me and you’re not helping your cause.'”

“It was ironic, and he said, ‘Sarah’s not even here; you’re yelling and screaming at somebody who’s not here.’"

Huckabee warned that Americans need to be wary of how dangerous this type of harassment is:

“This is what the Left has been reduced to – it’s really tragic. And, it is dangerous and that’s what I think people need to recognize.”

 

 

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21 minutes ago, TGHusker said:

More on the Sanders situation. Mike Huckabee, Sarah's dad, reported that the protest to Sarah Sanders didn't stop at the Red Hen

One problem with Huckabee's statement is what I put in bold.  Trump has been a poor example of civil exchange and could be

pointed to as the person who started this recent public bad mouthing - starting in the primaries and continuing during his presidency.

 

We also have the Florida attorney general being harassed by protesters as she left the Mr Rogers movie over the weekend.  This may be off topic again-

but it just represents the ugly climate we are in.  

 

https://www.cnsnews.com/blog/craig-bannister/mike-huckabee-red-hen-owner-followed-sarah-sanders-family-across-street-heckled

 

 

 

 

Funny thing.

 

There is no restaurant across the street from the Red Hen in Lexington, VA.

 

 

 

@TGHusker how much fact-checking did you do before sharing that story?  Is there another source besides Mike Huckabee?

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28 minutes ago, knapplc said:

 

 

Funny thing.

 

There is no restaurant across the street from the Red Hen in Lexington, VA.

 

 

 

@TGHusker how much fact-checking did you do before sharing that story?  Is there another source besides Mike Huckabee?

Across the street may be a figure of speech but there are restaurants nearby as noted by this google map list.   Sorry about the formatting - my screen print doesn't paste well on here and the map didn't copy over. There appears to be 4 restaurants within 1-2 blocks of the Red Hen

Another article on the Huckabee interview.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/red-hen-owner-followed-sarah-sanders-family-to-protest-their-presence-at-different-restaurant

 

 

Haywood's Restaurant

4.3
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(42)
Restaurant · 2 N Main St
Hotel piano bar with New American eats
 
 

Southern Inn Restaurant

4.4
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(280)
$$ · American · 37 S Main St
New American cuisine with Virginia wines
Open until 10:00 PM
 
 

The Palms

4.2
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(243)
$$ · American · 101 W Nelson St
American chow in a vintage building
Open until 11:00 PM
 
 

The Red Hen Lex

4.4
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(45)
$$ · American · 11 E Washington St
Smart bistro with locavore American fare
Open until 8:30 PM
 
 

Foothill Momma's BBQ Juke Joint

4.4
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(211)
Barbecue · 141 E Midland Trail
Vibrant joint for wood-smoked meat
Open until 8:00 PM
 
 

Frank's Pizza & Subs

4.4
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(110)
Pizza · 511 E Nelson St
Open until 10:00 PM
 
 

Lexington Restaurant

4.2
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(92)
$ · Family-friendly · 810 S Main St
Open until 8:00 PM
 
 

NapaThai Cuisine

4.5
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(121)
$$ · Thai · 24 N Main St
Open until 9:00 PM
 
 

Salerno Pizzeria, Bar and Bistro

4.1
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(95)
$$ · Italian · 115 S Jefferson St
Family-owned standby for pizza & pasta
Opens at 10:30 AM
 
 

Rocca Bar Ristorante

Italian · 30 S Main St
Open until 9:00 PM
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4 hours ago, knapplc said:

 

 

Funny thing.

 

There is no restaurant across the street from the Red Hen in Lexington, VA.

 

 

 

@TGHusker how much fact-checking did you do before sharing that story?  Is there another source besides Mike Huckabee?

 

3 hours ago, knapplc said:

Right. Is there a source for this other than Mike Huckabee?

 

Because his reputation for honesty is... bad.

 

And all the sources for this story are from right-wing sites. And the only quote in these articles is from Mike Huckabee.

 

 

I have no idea if that restaurant owner followed them and heckled them or not but a simple Google map search located at least 7 restaurants within a block of that Red Hen in Lexington VA. Maybe ole Mike is telling tall tales but it would seem like a pretty easy thing for witnesses to either confirm or refute. Guess we'll have to wait and see which it is....not that I really care either way.

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Here's my general philosophy of how things ought to be.

 

First thing, there's got to be an acknowledgment and education of the different types of things that can or can not be refused to customers. Anything involving freedom of speech, or an extension of it through artistic talent, products of creative expression, artisanal crafts, etc., should be and are protected pretty much carte blanche, except in rare cases of direct threat of violence, some scenarios of libel/slander, etc.

 

Someone should be allowed to refuse to make a piece of jewelry for a Christian because they are against the religion, just as someone should be able to refuse a commissioned painting to a black person because they're racist, just as someone should be able to refuse an interior decorating project to a Jew because they're anti-semitic, etc. Sociologically we all ought to do our damndest to fix those behaviors, but they need to be protected because freedom of speech is a cornerstone of a free society and that includes the freedom to say/think awful things, even though we hope to weed those out of people the best we can.

 

When it comes to anything else, say running a bar or a restaurant or a bookstore or a coffee shop or a tire store, etc., I guess I'm of the opinion that you should be able to refuse some or any service for any reason you see fit, as long as the reason you're doing it isn't based off a protected class. You can refuse to let a black guy into your club if he's wearing an Affliction or Tapout t-shirt, but you can't not let a black guy into your bar because he's black. That perhaps opens up a little bit too much leniency of lying/excusing the true intentions, but I guess that's what the courts are for? 

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Actions have consequences.  I wonder if the owner had any idea she'd be forced to shut her restaurant down when she made the decision to ask SHS to leave. 

 

Quote

 

Red Hen owner who ousted Trump spokeswoman quits local group

 

The co-owner of the Virginia restaurant that refused to serve White House press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders has resigned from a local business group.

 

News outlets report Stephanie Wilkinson, co-owner of the Red Hen, resigned Tuesday as executive director of Main Street Lexington. The group’s board president, Elizabeth Outland Branner, says Wilkinson felt she should resign considering the past weekend’s events.

 

Wilkinson told The Washington Post that she asked Sanders to leave the restaurant Friday evening at the request of gay employees who object to how Sanders defended President Donald Trump’s desire to bar transgender people from the military.

 

The Red Hen has not reopened since that night. Protests continue, with one man being escorted away by police after throwing chicken manure.

 

 

 

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On 6/26/2018 at 2:19 PM, Coach Power'T said:

 

It was already taken care of, I was just acknowledging what was omitted instead of reiterating what was already said in the quote I was responding to.

 

I appreciate calling me hypocritical which I am not.

 

i forgot I’m in the extreme left tribal echo chamber 

I called your statement hypocritical. And then you actually continue to prove my point by posting the bolded above.

 

Look, we've all been hypocritical at some time or other, but it's hard to take your neutrality argument seriously when you can't even follow it yourself in the post about neutrality and again in the follow-up post. :dunno

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