Spinoff Topic - Transgender Children

[Landlord]

Making Chimichangas just posted this article in the Transgender People in the Military Thread:

 

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/08/14/transgender-castrate-child-oklahoma-parents-threaten-school/

 

 

 

And it got me thinking, and prepared to open up a can of worms. At what age is it, or should it be, appropriate for a child to identify as transgender? Or, at what age should parents relinquish the right to allow their child to transition, versus having final say? Transgender as a concept is all about self identity and/or expression, aka, it's not an external truth like biology or physics but an internal one. Also, all kids will and do display some gender non-conforming behavior (girls playing with trucks, boys wearing dresses) throughout childhood, which could or couldn't mean anything important. So, with the topic of children, it becomes pretty confusing at least to me personally, and raises a lot of questions:

 

• What's the degree of gender non-conformity or self-declared gender identity that means a kid is or isn't transgender?

 

• To what degree should parents be legally allowed to provide their child with social/medical support for a non-conforming gender identity?

 

• At what age should they be allowed to do that? Especially anything that isn't able to be reverted?

 

• Is it at all possible for pre-teens and teens going through transgender identity to be a phase? 

 

• Is it reasonable or consistent for the law to not give kids the autonomy to vote, smoke, or drink before at least age 18 no matter what, or to get tattoos or piercings without parental consent, but to allow them to make a decision that they want permanent life and body altering hormones earlier than that? Why or why not?

 

I'll put it this way. I think giving a 3 year old hormone therapy is parental abuse. I also think denying a 16 year old the right to medically transition is also most probably parental abuse. There are serious dangers and potential consequences to too much parental liberty, and too much parental control. What are we to do?

[funhusker]

 

I wish you luck Landlord!!!!

[funhusker]

I will actually be interested to see some thoughts on this.  We have friends whose son (born daughter) decided he wanted to  transition his sophomore year of high school.  I imagine this family and situation was almost as amicable as one could hope, but it still leaves many questions.  He is the oldest of 4 kids, meaning there are a lot of questions from the younger siblings and uncertainty on how to answer them.

 

This is a very deep topic and i can only see it from the surface.

 

EDIT: Our friends' son hasn't had surgery or taken hormone therapy drugs.  I probably have my vernacular incorrect when I say "transition", but he started dressing as a male and wants to be called by a male name.

[Moiraine]

I don't think anyone under the age of 18 should be able to take hormone therapy drugs unless it's for something life threatening or it will help them with terrible pain, like for menstrual cramps or something similar.

Likewise, I don't think anyone under the age of 18 should be allowed to have a surgery unless it's for an illness or life threatening disease or won't cause a permanent, drastic change to their body. It's illegal to get a tattoo under 18, so it should be illegal to change your anatomy to become a different gender.

I know some would claim a transgender person feels suicidal and making a physical change will help in this regard, but on the other hand teenagers do lots of things they regret and there would be some cases where they end up feeling that it was a mistake. Teenagers are all pretty messed up.

[Landlord]

5 minutes ago, Moiraine said:

I don't think anyone under the age of 18 should be able to take hormone therapy drugs unless it's for something life threatening or it will help them with terrible pain, like for menstrual cramps or something similar.

Likewise, I don't think anyone under the age of 18 should be allowed to have a surgery unless it's for an illness or life threatening disease or won't cause a permanent, drastic change to their body. It's illegal to get a tattoo under 18, so it should be illegal to change your anatomy to become a different gender.

I know some would claim a transgender person feels suicidal and making a physical change will help in this regard, but on the other hand teenagers do lots of things they regret and there would be some cases where they end up feeling that it was a mistake. Teenagers are all pretty messed up.

 

 

I know a lot of people who would claim you're acting as an agent of oppression with that sentiment.

[Moiraine]

27 minutes ago, Landlord said:

I know a lot of people who would claim you're acting as an agent of oppression with that sentiment.

 

 

I don't really care. I think people can wait until they're 18 to make such a permanent decision, and I'm fine with them making that decision at that time if they want to. There are lots of f***ed up things teenagers go through just by being a teenager. Getting them through it alive can be a challenge, but they should also be gotten through it before they make such an important decision for their life. They should be an adult before they make it.

 

Also, to answer another of your questions, OBVIOUSLY it can and is a phase for SOME teenagers. Erego they should be made to wait until they're 18 to make sure it's not a phase, and it's really what they want to do. That's a no-brainer if you've ever met a teenager and it should be a no-brainer if you've ever been a teenager. Teenagers often wonder what is wrong with themselves, and there are going to be some who merely think it's their gender that's the problem.

[Ric Flair]

47 minutes ago, Moiraine said:

I don't think anyone under the age of 18 should be able to take hormone therapy drugs unless it's for something life threatening or it will help them with terrible pain, like for menstrual cramps or something similar.

Likewise, I don't think anyone under the age of 18 should be allowed to have a surgery unless it's for an illness or life threatening disease or won't cause a permanent, drastic change to their body. It's illegal to get a tattoo under 18, so it should be illegal to change your anatomy to become a different gender.

I know some would claim a transgender person feels suicidal and making a physical change will help in this regard, but on the other hand teenagers do lots of things they regret and there would be some cases where they end up feeling that it was a mistake. Teenagers are all pretty messed up.

 

I think that’s sensible. At a minimum, someone should be an adult before making such drastic decisions. I also think some counseling, especially prior to surgery makes sense. It seems like there’s a fairly high regret rate with these types of surgeries. I question whether when the mind and the body/DNA/etc. disagree abour one’s gender, whether surgery is the appropriate solution. In my view it makes sense to examine whether there maybe an underlying psychological issue that can be fixed first. 

 

But there’s so much about human sexuality, the mind, etc. that we’re just beginning to understand. In the meantime, we should just try to treat people and these decisions with as much compassion as possible.

[Big Red 40]

1 hour ago, Moiraine said:

I don't think anyone under the age of 18 should be able to take hormone therapy drugs unless it's for something life threatening or it will help them with terrible pain, like for menstrual cramps or something similar.

Likewise, I don't think anyone under the age of 18 should be allowed to have a surgery unless it's for an illness or life threatening disease or won't cause a permanent, drastic change to their body. It's illegal to get a tattoo under 18, so it should be illegal to change your anatomy to become a different gender.

I know some would claim a transgender person feels suicidal and making a physical change will help in this regard, but on the other hand teenagers do lots of things they regret and there would be some cases where they end up feeling that it was a mistake. Teenagers are all pretty messed up.

I agree . That’s the reason you have parents is to help you get through that messed up stage in life without effing yourself up too bad . 18 is considered a legal adult in most cases so that’s a good line to draw on a life altering decision like that . 

[Making Chimichangas]

There is no definitive, one size fits all answer.  At the minimum, I think kids who are, or might be, trans to go on hormone blockers to prevent/delay puberty.  What's a good age to begin transition?  6 might be too young, but 18-20 might be too late.  I don't know the answer.

 

 

[NM11046]

Thanks for starting this thread.

 

• I think by age 3, 4, 5 a child knows they are different.  Whether that's gay or not seems to be less than clear, but the data I've seen and the children and parents in this (transgender) situation that I've read about and seen documentaries on say that it was a battle at a very early age because Billy demanded to be a girl, play with girls, be called a girl name etc.  I'll see if I can locate the sources and share, there's one family in Maine that's been very open and a whole documentary on it that was very informative.  But I think for some it's very, very early.
• Parents of transgendered children are counseled as well, and while I'm sure there are many situations, what I've seen is even the most resisting parent can see the struggle that their child is going through.  I think this too depends on the child.  And it's why trained medical professionals are involved intimately with guiding the discussion with the family before and during and after actions are taken.  
• Parents should be allowed to provide their child with whatever support social/medical that they want and need to.  Just like my reproductive rights as a woman are between me and my doctor, I think this discussion is with a child and their medical team and their parents until they are deemed able to make decisions on their own.  
• I think that the hormone discussion hinges on puberty and avoiding the full transition into adulthood of their genital sex (that's definitely not the right way to put it - sorry!)  Before a child does anything, whether it be coming out as female and introducing themselves at school, family, starting medical treatment etc they go through extensive personal and family therapy.  This isn't a decision that's made during a visit to a prescribing doctors' office.  
• "Transgender as a concept is all about self identity and/or expression, aka, it's not an external truth like biology or physics but an internal one."  There is data now showing that biologically transgender individuals do have differences than their birth gender.  I'll dig for sources later.  So I am with you partially Landlord, but I think that data and opinion is evolving.  It's more than self expression.
• Hormones can be started and stopped - I think what you're asking about is if there should be an age for physical, surgical changes - and I don't think it's a hard number.  I'd have to do some research, but I'm fairly sure that nothing is done surgically until after puberty, so no kid is doing anything other than hormones until their late teens.
• I don't believe it's a phase.

There are some amazing professionals out there that work exclusively with this population.  The concern I have is about that girl in OK that is not near someone who specializes in this to help her and her family.  

 

I love this discussion because there is starting to be so much in the way of science and hard data to support decisions and etc.  

[NM11046]

9 hours ago, Making Chimichangas said:

There is no definitive, one size fits all answer.  At the minimum, I think kids who are, or might be, trans to go on hormone blockers to prevent/delay puberty.  What's a good age to begin transition?  6 might be too young, but 18-20 might be too late.  I don't know the answer.

 

 

Chimi if it's not too forward (if it is just say so) what age were you when you fully realized you were transgender?  

[NM11046]

A good, recent, well researched article:  https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/five-myths-about-transgender-issues/2016/05/13/eca17dbc-177e-11e6-9e16-2e5a123aac62_story.html?utm_term=.0d2030dff416

 

Some highlights:

"children as young as 2 can present with gender incongruence. According to the American Psychiatric Association, cross-gender behaviors often start between 2 and 4 years old. One study by the TransYouth Project found that kids as young as 5 respond to psychological gender-association tests, which evaluate how people understand their gender roles."

 

"One of the most common and misleading tropes about transgender people is that many regret making their transitions. There are websites ... dedicated to the topic. One writer, Walt Heyer (who regrets his own transition), claims that 20 percent of transgender people regret transitioning, 41 percent attempt suicide and at least 60 percent suffer from some kind of mental illness. “Suicide and regret,” he writes, “remain the dark side of transgender life.” 

 

These statistics and misstatements are based on outdated research. More recent studies suggest that less than 4 percent of people who get gender-reassignment surgery regret it. Researchers have also found that the surgery dramatically reduces suicide rates among trans people. 

Of course, some people regret transitioning. A handful may even transition back. But the vast majority do not."

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11564029

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15842032 " this one is specific to adolescents

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/262734734_An_Analysis_of_All_Applications_for_Sex_Reassignment_Surgery_in_Sweden_1960-2010_Prevalence_Incidence_and_Regrets

https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/transgender-kids-are-not-confused-or-pretending-study-finds.html  *age/children identifying as transgender

 

 

[khaake]

As a parent of a transgender child, I appreciate this thread, and I wish I had decent answers for you. Our oldest son (born daughter) came out as gay as a sophmore in high school and then as transgender not too long after that. He is now a sophmore in college, out on his own, living with friends, and overall is doing pretty well. One of my takeaways as I've thought about this is that while gender is often viewed as binary, it really isn't - it seems much more of a continuim. Looking back at his childhood, we recall both birth-gender non-conforming and conforming behaviors from a young age. To some extent, these different expressions still continue today. And I think that can make it hard for parents to recognize what the best path forward is for their kid, despite what their kid is telling them. I think most do not want to 'jump the gun' so to speak, but denial/dismissal is certainly damaging as well. It's difficult.

[NM11046]

An excellent article about a girl in Maine (one of a set of male twins at birth) and her and her family’s transgender journey.  There is some data on biology and brain development vs genetics that is super interesting.    Im fairly sure they were also interviewed on NPR which was also very good with regard to Q& A

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2015/10/19/becoming-nicole/?utm_term=.756c66428290

[NM11046]

Sorry - waiting for car repairs so Ive had a chance to do my research.

 

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/10/19/449937765/becoming-nicole-recounts-one-familys-acceptance-of-their-transgender-child

 

And if you have HBO the documentary The Trans List has Nicole and bunch of others interviewed.