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19 minutes ago, funhusker said:

But the question remains, what quantifiable traits of him can be used to defend a raise?

 

Let's say I have two office employees.  One is accounts payable and the other is accounts receivable.  Two very similar jobs at the same level.  You can't quantify what these to positions do as far as contribution to profitability to the company.  But, there are times where I will give one a higher raise than the other.  Why?  It's usually based on what else are they willing to do around the office and contribute?  Are they someone who we can count on to jump in and help?  Or, are they someone who just sits at their desk, does their job but hides when anything else needs done?  Are they someone who helps solve problems around the office?  Or, are they someone who creates those problems?  None of that is "quantifiable".  But, everyone knows it when they see it.  One of these people will be considered for a promotion when one is available.  The other...not so much.

Just now, teachercd said:

Could you imagine the PE teachers...they would be BEGGING to have the star athletes in their class so that they could get a fat raise when during their eval they could see the kids dunking!

To be honest?  PE in high school is a waste of time.  Just my opinion.  

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4 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

Let's say I have two office employees.  One is accounts payable and the other is accounts receivable.  Two very similar jobs at the same level.  You can't quantify what these to positions do as far as contribution to profitability to the company.  But, there are times where I will give one a higher raise than the other.  Why?  It's usually based on what else are they willing to do around the office and contribute?  Are they someone who we can count on to jump in and help?  Or, are they someone who just sits at their desk, does their job but hides when anything else needs done?  Are they someone who helps solve problems around the office?  Or, are they someone who creates those problems?  None of that is "quantifiable".  But, everyone knows it when they see it.  One of these people will be considered for a promotion when one is available.  The other...not so much.

To be honest?  PE in high school is a waste of time.  Just my opinion.  

PE is a huge waste!  I agree!

 

Two of my friends "teach" PE and their day is joke.

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13 minutes ago, teachercd said:

The kids that speak Spanish and come to the states struggle hard in Spanish class, not always but often.  Think of it this way, I speak English but did not get A's in all my english classes.  In theory every kid in America that is an english speaker should get an "A" in english class but it doesn't happen because it is more than just speaking.  It is sentence structure, conjugating, proper word use and so on.

 

I could take a 9th grade English right now and I would struggle in it. 

 

Again, I am totally fine with getting paid more for being great at my job...but you are not giving any concrete ideas.

 

 

Well...this gets into an entire other subject.  Spanish everywhere is taught wrong.  They shouldn't be teaching "spanish".  They should be teaching "Mexican".  There's a difference.

 

But, still.  This kid was a straight A student in absolutely everything else.  And....he couldn't do it in this class because of how it was being taught.

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19 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

Let's say I have two office employees.  One is accounts payable and the other is accounts receivable.  Two very similar jobs at the same level.  You can't quantify what these to positions do as far as contribution to profitability to the company.  But, there are times where I will give one a higher raise than the other.  Why?  It's usually based on what else are they willing to do around the office and contribute?  Are they someone who we can count on to jump in and help?  Or, are they someone who just sits at their desk, does their job but hides when anything else needs done?  Are they someone who helps solve problems around the office?  Or, are they someone who creates those problems?  None of that is "quantifiable".  But, everyone knows it when they see it.  One of these people will be considered for a promotion when one is available.  The other...not so much.

To be honest?  PE in high school is a waste of time.  Just my opinion.  

But if the raise is to award good teachers, why would the “extra stuff” matter?

 

Some of the teachers I respect the most frustrate the hell out of our admin.  Some of the poorest teachers I’ve been around have been tied to the hips of admin.

 

The principal/teacher relationship isn’t quite the same as a boss/employee.  Some similarities, but a lot of differences.  

 

Thats why it needs to be quantifiable to award job performance.  
 

Both AR and AP guy might do there jobs well, but when it boils down, one got the raise because you like having him/her around more than the other.  Not saying it’s wrong, just saying it doesn’t solve the problem we’re trying to solve.

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3 minutes ago, funhusker said:

But if the raise is to award good teachers, why would the “extra stuff” matter?

 

Some of the teachers I respect the most frustrate the hell out of our admin.  Some of the poorest teachers I’ve been around have been tied to the hips of admin.

 

Thats why it needs to be quantifiable to award job performance.  
 

Both AR and AP guy might do there jobs well, but when it boils down, one got the raise because you like having him/her around more than the other.  Not saying it’s wrong, just saying it doesn’t solve the problem we’re trying to solve.

I don't agree.  First off, the bolded sounds like an admin problem....not a teacher problem.  And, that should be handled by their bosses (board) at their evaluation.  This happens in industry too.  But, a good boss doesn't do this.  There are good and bad bosses in industry too.

 

To your last paragraph.  I don't agree.  The one contributes more to the office than the other and is a better team player that contributes more to the office being successful.  It's not based on which one I would rather go have a beer with.

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1 minute ago, BigRedBuster said:

I don't agree.  First off, the bolded sounds like an admin problem....not a teacher problem.  And, that should be handled by their bosses (board) at their evaluation.  This happens in industry too.  But, a good boss doesn't do this.  There are good and bad bosses in industry too.

 

To your last paragraph.  I don't agree.  The one contributes more to the office than the other and is a better team player that contributes more to the office being successful.  It's not based on which one I would rather go have a beer with.

Absolutely an admin problem. But that’s whose being put in charge of this.  Maybe that mountain needs climbed first?

 

I didn’t say “have a beer”, I essentially said which one you’d prefer to work with.  And you listed the reasons why you’d rather work with them.

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1 minute ago, funhusker said:

Absolutely an admin problem. But that’s whose being put in charge of this.  Maybe that mountain needs climbed first?

Yes.  Interestingly, aren't most administrators ex-teachers?

 

1 minute ago, funhusker said:

I didn’t say “have a beer”, I essentially said which one you’d prefer to work with.  And you listed the reasons why you’d rather work with them.

That's a big part of someone being a good employee.  Are they someone that works within the team and is someone that others can count on to help out.

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2 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

Yes.  Interestingly, aren't most administrators ex-teachers?

 

That's a big part of someone being a good employee.  Are they someone that works within the team and is someone that others can count on to help out.

Yep. And a lot of them couldn’t wait to get out of the classroom.

 

Is that the trait of a good teacher we are wanting to reward then?  

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10 minutes ago, funhusker said:

Yep. And a lot of them couldn’t wait to get out of the classroom.

 

Is that the trait of a good teacher we are wanting to reward then?  

If you're talking about being a team player and contributing to the success of the school, yes.

 

Look, industry is riddled with people who move up in management and are resented by the people who don't claiming the only reason they moved up is because they kissed the boss's a$$.  Does that happen?  Sure.  But, in general, it's not the biggest factor in someone moving up.

 

Actually, I always thought the ones that went into administration are ones that were willing to go get their masters degrees in administration and apply for the job, in part to make more money.  I have no idea if they actually enjoyed being a teacher or not.  I have people in management in my company that started in production on the floor.  They were very good at it. But, after a while, they wanted a change and they wanted to make more money, so they did what it took to move up in the company.  But, since they were good at their jobs on the floor, that helps them be good at management and able to evaluate and train employees still on the floor.

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22 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

If you're talking about being a team player and contributing to the success of the school, yes.

 

Look, industry is riddled with people who move up in management and are resented by the people who don't claiming the only reason they moved up is because they kissed the boss's a$$.  Does that happen?  Sure.  But, in general, it's not the biggest factor in someone moving up.

 

Actually, I always thought the ones that went into administration are ones that were willing to go get their masters degrees in administration and apply for the job, in part to make more money.  I have no idea if they actually enjoyed being a teacher or not.  I have people in management in my company that started in production on the floor.  They were very good at it. But, after a while, they wanted a change and they wanted to make more money, so they did what it took to move up in the company.  But, since they were good at their jobs on the floor, that helps them be good at management and able to evaluate and train employees still on the floor.

Just during my career (and I have my masters degree for admin and turned down a principal job because I really have no idea what they do all day), most administrators could not wait to leave the classroom.

 

Usually you have to teach 3 years before becoming a principal.  In my career my principals were

 

And old shop teacher who was awesome!

A horrible former music teacher who happened to be one of the meanest people I have ever met.  Taught for 3 years and hated teaching and kids.

A former 2 year teacher who had no idea how to teach or relate to kids or staff

A former 15 year teacher who is amazing

 

But most seem to get out of the teaching side because they hate teaching.

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2 minutes ago, teachercd said:

Just during my career (and I have my masters degree for admin and turned down a principal job because I really have no idea what they do all day), most administrators could not wait to leave the classroom.

 

Usually you have to teach 3 years before becoming a principal.  In my career my principals were

 

And old shop teacher who was awesome!

A horrible former music teacher who happened to be one of the meanest people I have ever met.  Taught for 3 years and hated teaching and kids.

A former 2 year teacher who had no idea how to teach or relate to kids or staff

A former 15 year teacher who is amazing

 

But most seem to get out of the teaching side because they hate teaching.

So...teachers believe that administrators are there because they were bad teachers and don't know what good teachers are and in general...aren't good at their jobs?

 

Sounds like many of my employees.  :laughpound

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3 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

So...teachers believe that administrators are there because they were bad teachers and don't know what good teachers are and in general...aren't good at their jobs?

 

Sounds like many of my employees.  :laughpound

Many principals, just like Professors, sort of "forget" what it is like to actually teach.

 

They mean well but don't really get it anymore.

 

 

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37 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

Actually, I always thought the ones that went into administration are ones that were willing to go get their masters degrees in administration and apply for the job, in part to make more money.  

 

I know of a handful of teachers that only taught long enough to get into the admin because the classroom sucks. One guy wanted to be a principal or higher because you get a lot more pay and still get "summers off" without dealing with day-to-day classroom duties. 

 

And like teach said above, my wife's principal hasn't been a classroom teacher in 30 years! She's so out of touch with what's going on. Her principal before that was the "tech teacher" who never had an actual classroom to deal with. 

 

At most schools you also have to pay for credit each year just to get your annual increase which barely covers the cost of those credits. Not to mention, you'll eventually run out of payscale steps to move up and you'll have to get a master's or higher, and the increase for that won't cover your master's. My wife got her master's because she was at the end of her pay level, she also had enough continuing education credit to move a step on top of that, but they wouldn't let her use both. So she lost those credits because they expire after a couple years. 

 

My job is never going to require me to get an advanced degree. Hell, one of my CCOs had a f#&%ing ART degree :lol: 

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23 minutes ago, teachercd said:

Just during my career (and I have my masters degree for admin and turned down a principal job because I really have no idea what they do all day), most administrators could not wait to leave the classroom.

 

Usually you have to teach 3 years before becoming a principal.  In my career my principals were

 

And old shop teacher who was awesome!

A horrible former music teacher who happened to be one of the meanest people I have ever met.  Taught for 3 years and hated teaching and kids.

A former 2 year teacher who had no idea how to teach or relate to kids or staff

A former 15 year teacher who is amazing

 

But most seem to get out of the teaching side because they hate teaching.

 

Do you know what the principal salary vs teacher salary is in your district? 

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