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4 minutes ago, GSG said:

 

Do you know what the principal salary vs teacher salary is in your district? 

Oh sure...

 

An elementary principal will start close to 100,000, so in theory that would be their 4th year in the school/district

A 4th year teacher no masters, maybe 47ish?  That is just a guess, I have not looked at that scale in a long time.

 

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1 hour ago, GSG said:

 

I know of a handful of teachers that only taught long enough to get into the admin because the classroom sucks. One guy wanted to be a principal or higher because you get a lot more pay and still get "summers off" without dealing with day-to-day classroom duties. 

 

And like teach said above, my wife's principal hasn't been a classroom teacher in 30 years! She's so out of touch with what's going on. Her principal before that was the "tech teacher" who never had an actual classroom to deal with. 

 

At most schools you also have to pay for credit each year just to get your annual increase which barely covers the cost of those credits. Not to mention, you'll eventually run out of payscale steps to move up and you'll have to get a master's or higher, and the increase for that won't cover your master's. My wife got her master's because she was at the end of her pay level, she also had enough continuing education credit to move a step on top of that, but they wouldn't let her use both. So she lost those credits because they expire after a couple years. 

 

My job is never going to require me to get an advanced degree. Hell, one of my CCOs had a f#&%ing ART degree :lol: 

I'm going to ask this not to be snippy.  But, it seems to me that the reason why teachers can't be evaluated in a way that good teachers get higher raises is that....just nobody understands what they do and what they go through.  Not even ex teachers that are in administration.

 

Do you understand why people not in teaching just roll their eyes at that attitude?

 

Much of your post seems like budgetary issues.  Like, the money isn't there for higher raises.  Which, that's a whole other conversation that we would tend to agree on.

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Formans in industry can watch their people work all day if they want to. In the engineering world we have design reviews to look over someone's product and provide feedback. We also actively seek customer feedback, feedback from lead engineers on a project who are more involved with the day to day work, peer reviews, evaluate on how long a jobs take and the quality of work. 

 

Sounds like teachers are worried about that parent who complains about everything, and their kid is a special snowflake, but every admin and many other parents know who THAT parent is too and they can be filtered out. 

 

I think having admins visit each classroom once a term, getting peer feedback from other teachers, getting some sort of feedback from parents/kids are all good options. If parents are all requesting a certain teacher or are all trying to avoid a certain teacher that might be a clue. Maybe a teacher keeps getting nominated for the golden apple every year. 

 

I agree with BRB, gotta give the good teachers more money. This current setup doesn't promote the best to the top. I suspect the union sets limits. We have pay teachers more period, but we also need to keep the good ones  happy and better paid.

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8 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

I'm going to ask this not to be snippy.  But, it seems to me that the reason why teachers can't be evaluated in a way that good teachers get higher raises is that....just nobody understands what they do and what they go through.  Not even ex teachers that are in administration.

 

Do you understand why people not in teaching just roll their eyes at that attitude?

 

Much of your post seems like budgetary issues.  Like, the money isn't there for higher raises.  Which, that's a whole other conversation that we would tend to agree on.

It is the variables that make it really really hard to do.

 

You could have one kid destroy an entire class eval/observation with a smartass remark or throwing something or asking a question that is totally not appropriate.  

 

It is not like a normal job because we working with people that, often times, don't want to be there and/or are actively working against us.

 

Imagine you have a guy that does sales at your job...then imagine a coworker of his unplugging his phone every time he tries to make a call.  

 

Imagine training a new worker and after everything you show him he goes "I don't get it" BUT you can't just say "Well,this is not working, you have to leave"

 

Imagine you tell a dude at work "Hey, you know what, you can't wear that (item of clothing) to work" and they respond "I f#&%ing heard you, I just don't give a f#&%" (That is almost word for word what happened a few months ago to a teaching friend.)

 

Imagine asking your staff to put their phones and/or tablets away for a moment...and they just don't.

 

Imagine telling your staff you need something done by tomorrow and they just don't do it...but you have no way to discipline them.

 

What if you are giving a presentation to your staff and one of them yawns really loud and goes "Ugggg, why do we need to know this?  This is sooooo stupid, no one cares"

 

Those are all things that most teachers deal with every single day and that is even at good schools.  In fact every example above has happened either to me or teaching friends.

 

So, are they getting evaluated on that?  Does that impact their raise?

 

Again, I am all for more money and I am sure I would get raises based on certain things, like my actual teaching ability and all the extra s#!t I do and my attendance and good attitude.  But that is not all we do and very few classes ever go "perfect"

 

@funhusker teaches shop, what if he is getting evaluated and one kid decides it will be funny to push another kid and that kid "shops" off his finger (Sorry, I don't know names of things in the shop class because I am not a real man).  Is that his fault?  Clearly he would never tell his class to do that in purpose.

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6 minutes ago, nic said:

Formans in industry can watch their people work all day if they want to. In the engineering world we have design reviews to look over someone's product and provide feedback. We also actively seek customer feedback, feedback from lead engineers on a project who are more involved with the day to day work, peer reviews, evaluate on how long a jobs take and the quality of work. 

 

Sounds like teachers are worried about that parent who complains about everything, and their kid is a special snowflake, but every admin and many other parents know who THAT parent is too and they can be filtered out. 

 

I think having admins visit each classroom once a term, getting peer feedback from other teachers, getting some sort of feedback from parents/kids are all good options. If parents are all requesting a certain teacher or are all trying to avoid a certain teacher that might be a clue. Maybe a teacher keeps getting nominated for the golden apple every year. 

 

I agree with BRB, gotta give the good teachers more money. This current setup doesn't promote the best to the top. I suspect the union sets limits. We have pay teachers more period, but we also need to keep the good ones  happy and better paid.

I have not won that!  But I did win Teacher of the Month!

 

I think there is this weird idea that there are a ton of "bad teachers" there isn't.  Most teachers that hate it or are bad leave by the 3rd year, statistically speaking.

 

I think what you are seeing is that were are tons of great teachers that teach...but lots of kids that ruin classes and some parents that are insane.

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54 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

I'm going to ask this not to be snippy.  But, it seems to me that the reason why teachers can't be evaluated in a way that good teachers get higher raises is that....just nobody understands what they do and what they go through.  Not even ex teachers that are in administration.

 

Do you understand why people not in teaching just roll their eyes at that attitude?

 

Much of your post seems like budgetary issues.  Like, the money isn't there for higher raises.  Which, that's a whole other conversation that we would tend to agree on.

 

Funding would be huge, but we (Murica) like to spend all our money on the war machine more than anything else :dunno

 

My wife's district is cutting their free breakfasts and lunches this year. She and her coworkers already have parents emailing to complain. (I'm not fully in support of the free meals thing because A LOT of people just abuse it.)

 

But there's no reason teachers should be spending their own money to keep their classrooms running properly (but that $500.00 tax write-off does make me feel like a trump kid! :lol: ) 

 

 

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I don't think some of you really understand what it is like at school.  I teach at a school where pretty much every senior goes to college and there are times where I still have some "issues" in class...how could that possibly be compared to a teacher that teaches in the same district but at a school where 60% of the kids even graduate and there are constant fights and disruptions?  

 

 

If the raises were not based on classroom management at all...I would be 100% for it.  I am for it regardless, I just don't know how it would be done.

 

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39 minutes ago, nic said:

Formans in industry can watch their people work all day if they want to. In the engineering world we have design reviews to look over someone's product and provide feedback. We also actively seek customer feedback, feedback from lead engineers on a project who are more involved with the day to day work, peer reviews, evaluate on how long a jobs take and the quality of work. 

 

Sounds like teachers are worried about that parent who complains about everything, and their kid is a special snowflake, but every admin and many other parents know who THAT parent is too and they can be filtered out. 

 

I think having admins visit each classroom once a term, getting peer feedback from other teachers, getting some sort of feedback from parents/kids are all good options. If parents are all requesting a certain teacher or are all trying to avoid a certain teacher that might be a clue. Maybe a teacher keeps getting nominated for the golden apple every year. 

 

I agree with BRB, gotta give the good teachers more money. This current setup doesn't promote the best to the top. I suspect the union sets limits. We have pay teachers more period, but we also need to keep the good ones  happy and better paid.

This is currently happening.

 

What we are saying is there is no way we can see that info to be fairly used for a performance raise.

 

But that info is used to get teachers out of the classroom if they aren’t getting it, or to get them the help they need.

 

 

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1 minute ago, funhusker said:

This is currently happening.

 

What we are saying is there is no way we can see that info to be fairly used for a performance raise.

 

But that info is used to get teachers out of the classroom if they aren’t getting it, or to get them the help they need.

 

 

Exactly… I still find it weird that there’s like this thought process that teachers are not getting constantly observed and evaluated.

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34 minutes ago, teachercd said:

It is the variables that make it really really hard to do.

 

You could have one kid destroy an entire class eval/observation with a smartass remark or throwing something or asking a question that is totally not appropriate.  

 

It is not like a normal job because we working with people that, often times, don't want to be there and/or are actively working against us.

 

Imagine you have a guy that does sales at your job...then imagine a coworker of his unplugging his phone every time he tries to make a call.  

 

Imagine training a new worker and after everything you show him he goes "I don't get it" BUT you can't just say "Well,this is not working, you have to leave"

 

Imagine you tell a dude at work "Hey, you know what, you can't wear that (item of clothing) to work" and they respond "I f#&%ing heard you, I just don't give a f#&%" (That is almost word for word what happened a few months ago to a teaching friend.)

 

Imagine asking your staff to put their phones and/or tablets away for a moment...and they just don't.

 

Imagine telling your staff you need something done by tomorrow and they just don't do it...but you have no way to discipline them.

 

What if you are giving a presentation to your staff and one of them yawns really loud and goes "Ugggg, why do we need to know this?  This is sooooo stupid, no one cares"

 

Those are all things that most teachers deal with every single day and that is even at good schools.  In fact every example above has happened either to me or teaching friends.

 

So, are they getting evaluated on that?  Does that impact their raise?

 

Again, I am all for more money and I am sure I would get raises based on certain things, like my actual teaching ability and all the extra s#!t I do and my attendance and good attitude.  But that is not all we do and very few classes ever go "perfect"

 

@funhusker teaches shop, what if he is getting evaluated and one kid decides it will be funny to push another kid and that kid "shops" off his finger (Sorry, I don't know names of things in the shop class because I am not a real man).  Is that his fault?  Clearly he would never tell his class to do that in purpose.

 All of your examples are of employees or coworkers.  Which, a good manager would lay the wood to the guy unplugging your phone and probably fire him.

 

Better examples for you would be a salesman who has customers who are major problems (which every company has).  And, in that case, the management needs to understand the situation and manage accordingly.  

 

I had a salesman one time that had three of his top customers basically go out of business.  While doing so, they weren't paying us and were extremely difficult to work with.  the salesman was having to deal with them so much that he wasn't able to go out and find new business as fast as we would have liked.  But, I knew of the situation.  In fact, he worked his a$$ off during the entire thing and handled it very professionally and protected the company from losses.  I would consider this to be like the kid in your class that refuses to do what they are told and you're having to deal with it.  Administration needs to understand that and evaluate based on knowing that.

 

FYI.....kids like that should be kicked out of class and have to be handled somewhere else.  They are doing nothing but limiting what all the other kids can learn.

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5 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

FYI.....kids like that should be kicked out of class and have to be handled somewhere else.  They are doing nothing but limiting what all the other kids can learn.

 

Those days are long gone. You can't treat kids differently.

 

My wife teaches 4th grade. Her incoming class has 2 kids testing at 5th grade levels, about a 1/3 testing at 4th grade, and the rest are at 3rd or below. She has to create lesson plans that can accommodate all of these kids (some do get extra practice/help some days). She was joking this morning that she should be getting paid for teaching 3 grades :lol:

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3 minutes ago, GSG said:

 

Those days are long gone. You can't treat kids differently.

 

My wife teaches 4th grade. Her incoming class has 2 kids testing at 5th grade levels, about a 1/3 testing at 4th grade, and the rest are at 3rd or below. She has to create lesson plans that can accommodate all of these kids (some do extra practice/help some days). She was joking this morning that she should be getting paid for teaching 3 grades :lol:

True fact.  My Dad was a school teacher for a short time.  He taught every grade from Kindergarten through 8th grade....and every subject, including music.  He claims he was also the Principal (because he was the only staff member at the school)  He taught in a rural school right out of HS.

 

Yes...this was many many years ago.

 

But....bad disciplinary kids should still be taken out of the classroom.  That's one area where we need to go back to a past time.

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8 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

 All of your examples are of employees or coworkers.  Which, a good manager would lay the wood to the guy unplugging your phone and probably fire him.

 

Better examples for you would be a salesman who has customers who are major problems (which every company has).  And, in that case, the management needs to understand the situation and manage accordingly.  

 

I had a salesman one time that had three of his top customers basically go out of business.  While doing so, they weren't paying us and were extremely difficult to work with.  the salesman was having to deal with them so much that he wasn't able to go out and find new business as fast as we would have liked.  But, I knew of the situation.  In fact, he worked his a$$ off during the entire thing and handled it very professionally and protected the company from losses.  I would consider this to be like the kid in your class that refuses to do what they are told and you're having to deal with it.  Administration needs to understand that and evaluate based on knowing that.

 

FYI.....kids like that should be kicked out of class and have to be handled somewhere else.  They are doing nothing but limiting what all the other kids can learn.

They are.  And they come back in 10 minutes with a smirk and sometimes a candy bar.  I’m not kidding!

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4 minutes ago, funhusker said:

They are.  And they come back in 10 minutes with a smirk and sometimes a candy bar.  I’m not kidding!

This is an area where I fully 100% support the teachers.  That s#!t has to stop.

 

When I was a kid, if you caused problems, you were sent to "the hole".  It was what used to be the ticket booth for the gym.  It had no windows and was small.  You were required to sit in it for hours with the lights off.  Nothing to do.

 

It sucked.....so I'm told.  You did not want to be sent to the hole.

 

This was in Junior High.

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