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22 hours ago, DevoHusker said:

 

Aren't you in favor of strict mandating evaluations of police officers? To weed out the bad ones? (although I think you have said there are few/no good ones?)  Even though there is as big a shortage of cops? Why is teaching different?

This is a laughable comparison. First, I'm more about holding police accountable for their actions. Second, I think there are lots of good police officers, but I'm pretty underwhelmed by their acceptance/protection of the bad ones and the bad departments. Third, how can you even ask why teaching is different? Enforcing the law of the land could not be more different than educating children.

 

19 hours ago, BigRedBuster said:

Don’t get rid of the bad ones right now. Reward the good ones though. Keep them motivated and feel appreciated. 

Ok, that makes sense. I'm not sure there's a good evaluation metric though.

 

9 hours ago, funhusker said:

In industry, a supervisor can actually calculate how much an employee is worth monetarily.  It is objective.

There is no objective way to evaluate the monetary worth of an employee in any but the simplest of situations. Anything that takes more than 1 person to accomplish (almost everything) is going to be difficult to determine which person made what contribution to the final revenue.

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Ok teachers. 
 

At least do you understand why people outside the system just roll their eyes?

 

We hear from teachers. We need more money. 
 

We say, ok, let’s evaluate what’s going on and reward good teachers. 
 

Teachers say, no, you can’t do that because nobody knows what we do us. 
 

???

 

Meanwhile, I’ve learned that non teachers shouldn’t be on school boards. And, ex teachers with an education degree and at least some experience don’t even make good administrators and don’t have the capability to decide who a good teacher is or isn’t. 

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58 minutes ago, nic said:

Agreed. We have lived it. The principal that started the charter we attended was a genius at recognizing talent right out of college. He was also great at starting charters and staffing them. He never stayed more the three years anywhere however. after he left some of the staff left with him. The replacements were not all good, but they adjusted quickly.

Ha...one of my friends started a charter school in Cali...it was great...until too many others got involved.  

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17 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

Ok teachers. 
 

At least do you understand why people outside the system just roll their eyes?

 

We hear from teachers. We need more money. 
 

We say, ok, let’s evaluate what’s going on and reward good teachers. 
 

Teachers say, no, you can’t do that because nobody knows what we do us. 
 

???

But why not just...give us more money?

 

Why does it need to be some new eval thing that non-teachers are a part of?  You know what we do, you know how much we do.  Didn't you mention that your kid is a dentist...I mean...clearly you did a great job and so did the teachers.

 

What if you non-teachers just said "Hmmm, we pay firemen 125K a year and they don't do anything for the most part, teachers are with our kids 33% of the time and pretty much raise them 9 month out of the year...yeah we should give them more"

 

The eye rolling comes from the dorks that complain that we "only work 9 months a year"...newsflash THAT IS BECAUSE OF NON-TEACHERS...they don't want to give up their planned summer family vacations.  Normies shoot it down all the time.

 

I have given example after example as to why merit pay is really hard to do in the field and we both know that most teachers are really good at their job, so...just vote to pay more.  Instead of rolling your eyes, open your wallet.  

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1 hour ago, nic said:

I am also talking about paying the good teachers more and the lower performing teachers less, which would require some evaluation to decide. It may be that a teacher is fine but some are stellar and should be compensated more in my opinion. Does this happen or is it based on seniority? I suspect removal of a really bad teacher could happen.

It just works like this...every year you teach, you move up on the salary ladder.  If you get more degrees, you move up as well.  

 

That is it.  Unless the school board negotiates a new starting salary for new hires, which they tend to do every two years or so.

 

So when the base salary for starting teachers goes up, it changes the pay scale.

 

Admins are not on a scale or at least not on the same scale.

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If someone could explain to me why firemen are paid so much in comparison to teachers, with a good sound explanation, I would love to hear it.

 

We do way more, we are probably in more danger (think about it, firemen hardly rush into burning buildings anymore and they don't have fire station shootings)

 

Firemen have a union that actually worked for them.  Teachers, for years, have accepted low wages and were told they were being "noble"

 

If you are ranking public servants in order of who should get paid the most how does it not go...

 

1A:  Teachers

1B:  Cops

3:  Firemen

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1 hour ago, teachercd said:

If someone could explain to me why firemen are paid so much in comparison to teachers, with a good sound explanation, I would love to hear it.

 

We do way more, we are probably in more danger (think about it, firemen hardly rush into burning buildings anymore and they don't have fire station shootings)

 

Firemen have a union that actually worked for them.  Teachers, for years, have accepted low wages and were told they were being "noble"

 

If you are ranking public servants in order of who should get paid the most how does it not go...

 

1A:  Teachers

1B:  Cops

3:  Firemen

 

 

Do you have a salary comparison?

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2 minutes ago, Moiraine said:

 

 

Do you have a salary comparison?

https://hr.cityofomaha.org/images/stories/public_documents/pay_plans/aec/Fire_Bargaining_2022_pay_plan.pdf

 

https://www.ops.org/site/handlers/filedownload.ashx?moduleinstanceid=918&dataid=938&FileName=2021-2023 OEA Master Agreement.pdf

 

Go to page 38?

 

Notice the starting pay!

Oh and 7 years in...Firedorks are making 84,000!

Teachers less than 50!

 

Just to clarify, you can be a Firedork by 19 years old with no degree...which means by 26 you can be making 84,000 WITH only another 13 years until full retirement and a 80% pension (I think)

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33 minutes ago, teachercd said:

https://hr.cityofomaha.org/images/stories/public_documents/pay_plans/aec/Fire_Bargaining_2022_pay_plan.pdf

 

https://www.ops.org/site/handlers/filedownload.ashx?moduleinstanceid=918&dataid=938&FileName=2021-2023 OEA Master Agreement.pdf

 

Go to page 38?

 

Notice the starting pay!

Oh and 7 years in...Firedorks are making 84,000!

Teachers less than 50!

 

Just to clarify, you can be a Firedork by 19 years old with no degree...which means by 26 you can be making 84,000 WITH only another 13 years until full retirement and a 80% pension (I think)

 

 

Ok, your post makes more sense now knowing you're talking locally. Nationwide the salaries are about even.

And I don't know. I assume it comes down to the risking your lives part, or at least the idea of it. The # of firefighters who die on the job is actually very low.

I will say that jobs that were traditionally held by women continue to pay pretty low for what they are. I.e. nurses and teachers.

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1 minute ago, Moiraine said:

 

 

Ok, your post makes more sense now knowing you're talking locally. Nationwide the salaries are about even.

And I don't know. I assume it comes down to the risking your lives part, or at least the idea of it. The # of firefighters who die on the job is actually very low.

I will say that jobs that were traditionally held by women continue to pay pretty low for what they are. I.e. nurses and teachers.

My posts always made sense :)

 

You are using lame a$$ google sites, which I would as well but those suck.  Go look at the actual city links

 

Chicago

 

Firedorks by year 5:  98,000

 

Want to guess if CPS teachers make 98,000 by year 5?  Don't bother...they don't.

 

Firedorks make more because they tricked you (us) into the idea that their job was worth more.  I give them props, it is amazing what they accomplished!  

 

Nurses make amazing money...travel nurses will make 5K a week.  I wish I was one!  Nurses are amazing and actually work.

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4 hours ago, teachercd said:

But why not just...give us more money?

 

Why does it need to be some new eval thing that non-teachers are a part of?  You know what we do, you know how much we do.  Didn't you mention that your kid is a dentist...I mean...clearly you did a great job and so did the teachers.

 

What if you non-teachers just said "Hmmm, we pay firemen 125K a year and they don't do anything for the most part, teachers are with our kids 33% of the time and pretty much raise them 9 month out of the year...yeah we should give them more"

 

The eye rolling comes from the dorks that complain that we "only work 9 months a year"...newsflash THAT IS BECAUSE OF NON-TEACHERS...they don't want to give up their planned summer family vacations.  Normies shoot it down all the time.

 

I have given example after example as to why merit pay is really hard to do in the field and we both know that most teachers are really good at their job, so...just vote to pay more.  Instead of rolling your eyes, open your wallet.  

 In prior posts I said I was in favor of teachers being paid more (multiple times) AND I want the good teachers to be paid even better and the poor teachers not to get as good of a raise. I have even voted to raise taxes to pay teachers more. My oldest kids are still HS. Neither want to be a dentist. I never said anything about 9 months a year, but my brother who is a teacher mentions it all the time. I think you are mixing up posters.
 

There are all levels of teachers just like any other profession. If you are a better teacher than others in your school why should you not be paid more than those who are coasting or do not have your skill and ability?  We all know there are teachers that are better than others. Why is everyone so afraid of evaluations and getting better pay for effort and ability?

 

I will go back and read your posts on why merit pay for teachers is hard. I have not read every post here and the only reasons I remember was the concern about whining parents and unruly kids contributing to the evaluation.

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7 hours ago, nic said:

 In prior posts I said I was in favor of teachers being paid more (multiple times) AND I want the good teachers to be paid even better and the poor teachers not to get as good of a raise. I have even voted to raise taxes to pay teachers more. My oldest kids are still HS. Neither want to be a dentist. I never said anything about 9 months a year, but my brother who is a teacher mentions it all the time. I think you are mixing up posters.
 

There are all levels of teachers just like any other profession. If you are a better teacher than others in your school why should you not be paid more than those who are coasting or do not have your skill and ability?  We all know there are teachers that are better than others. Why is everyone so afraid of evaluations and getting better pay for effort and ability?

 

I will go back and read your posts on why merit pay for teachers is hard. I have not read every post here and the only reasons I remember was the concern about whining parents and unruly kids contributing to the evaluation.

I am for merit pay too.

 

 

 

I was not confusing posters, I posted that reply to BigRed.

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If we want good teachers, we need to get rid of the teacher shortage.  End of discussion.

 

Teachers have 3 years to "make the cut" before they receive tenure.  Even then, they can still be removed.  Just not on a whim.

 

We are routinely and frequently evaluated.  If evaluations are sufficient, you keep your job and move on over and up on the pay schedule with a raise.  I just don't see why we want to make this more complicated and possibly create a scenario where biases come into play.

 

If there is a large pool of teachers, administrators aren't going to keep bodies around that aren't getting it done.  The only reason crappy teachers make it out of the probationary window is because the admin feels like they are close enough to not risk not having a teacher at all.  The only reason that crappy teacher gets recycled from district to district, because there isn't a lot of other options.  Maybe this is why there are so many horror stories now compared to when we were all in school.

 

Teachers get better with experience and education (mostly.  although that's a rant for a different time.)  Annual raises based on experience and education are pretty clear metrics that not only is agreeable to most of the staff but can make payroll negotiations much more efficient.  Since it's a government program, we like efficiency right?

 

edit: conversations like this are much better on a computer than trying to deal with this site on a phone!

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On 8/5/2022 at 7:07 AM, teachercd said:

 

My boss (bosses) can literally come into my room and sit there and watch me work, for as long as they want.  Again, I am guessing that happens to none of you non-teachers.  I bet none of you have had your boss come into your office and/or cube and sit next to you for 40 to 90 minutes, while writing things down about what you are doing.

This would be a wrong assessment.

 

My boss works with me three straight days, all day long every single month.  His boss comes into town and works with me twice a year for two days, 10 hrs each day plus dinner.  Each visit has an evaluation at the end, and each quarter has an evaluation, and each year end has an evaluation.   None of this bothers me a bit as it’s part of the job I agreed to.  

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On 8/5/2022 at 9:04 AM, funhusker said:

I’m a firm believer that school performance is a reflection of the parents/families of the district.

For the most part, I agree with this.  There is only so much a teacher can do with a student that doesn’t have the support at home also.  
 

I think the leadership at each individual school is pretty important too in order to provide a good learning environment.   We’ve had good principals and bad ones and as parents, you could tell the difference and so could the teachers we would talk with 

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