Avengers 4: Endgame ***Speculation & Spoilers***

[Enhance]

1 hour ago, Landlord said:

I don't think it is possible. First of all, it would be totally out of character, wouldn't it? If he stayed in the same timeline (which he did because he showed up as an old man), then all the things in this timeline happened and he just...let them happen? Like he just chills while HYDRA infiltrates SHIELD? Second, he wouldn't stay in the same timeline because he'd be changing stuff and making divergent realities by staying back there wouldn't he? 

I think I can sort of work out their logic but it's messy if you try to extrapolate it too far.

 

The theory is you can't change the past to adjust your future because your future is your past, and your past is your future. You can't alter your own reality in any way. That's why they bring everyone back to the current MCU time line instead of trying to stop the Snap. It already happened, in their reality, so they can't change that and bring people back because it starts a new reality. So, to fix this, they set up the relatively simplistic rule (let's call it The Stone Rule) that if the stones get returned to the exact point in time that they were taken, then literally nothing else will matter and life will go on. (It feels like an arbitrary rule but there you have it).

 

So, if Cap goes back and returns all of the stones to the exact moment they were taken, presumably with Peggy being his last stop, then he fulfilled the requirement to put the stones back and thus not create a new reality. In theory, his staying with Peggy can't impact anything negatively because of The Stone Rule.

 

What makes it messy is this - while Avengers and Civil War was happening, was there a Cap quietly enjoying retirement? Also, since ~2013 Thanos jumped forward several years to the current MCU timeline, that Thanos won't be able to cause the Snap, so haven't they ultimately created a new reality out there? I personally think they did, but maybe we're meant to consider that as being acceptable because Thanos sucks and we just saved this other reality from his terror? But, without that happening, then the current reality couldn't have ever happened. It suggests that there are several other realities that may not play out like the one we're experiencing as fans.

 

 

Edit: I just read another explanation out there about The Stone Rule that suggests yes, in fact, there are other realities out there because the Ancient One says "my" reality and "your" reality. In that Ancient One's reality where Hulk meets her, they subsequently lose a stone to Loki when he disappears, since that stone is in the Tesseract. They do take the Time Stone out of that reality, though. But, because the Space stone is in the tesseract, and it stays in that universe with Loki, then it's all sort of OK until the Time Stone returns.

[Mavric]

 

[RedDenver]

Great movie.

 

Fat Thor was my favorite character. In a short time, Thor has failed at saving Asgard, then at saving his people from Thanos, then at killing Thanos before the snap. Thor is having a nervous breakdown when Endgame starts and he continues to be emotionally broken throughout the movie with him finding peace by the end but not everything is back how it was. His character arc is the same as the arc of the movie. I thought it was really well done.

[Cdog923]

The Russos have come out and said that Cap lives in an alternate timeline and returns to the proper timeline to give Sam his shield. And, they allude to the idea that Cap's story *might* have a few more chapters...

https://ew.com/movies/2019/04/30/avengers-endgame-russo-brothers-captain-america/

[sho]

On 4/29/2019 at 10:38 AM, Cdog923 said:

 

 

- The "Peter Parker" problem bugs me too, but I'm almost certain Far From Home will address it. 

 

 

With Peter, he was ash for 5 years, as was presumably, half of his HS class and they didn't age during those 5 years.  We just assume that Ned was ash as well.  5 years later, they are still HS kids and they are going back to school and getting their lives back to 'normal'

 

My main question was how they are planning on doing the WandaVision show on Disney+.   When Hulk reversed the snap, they all came back except Vision as he was dead before the snap.   And now the stones will be destroyed once they go back into their original timeline.   How do they do a WandaVision show?   Is it just from Age of Ultron through Infinity War?   Do they say that Wakanda was able to restore Vision and separate him from the stone like they were trying to do in IW?

 

And now that I've seen the end of Black Widow's arc, not sure how much interest I would have in seeing her origin story now.

 

As for future 'Avenger' movies, I can see the characters like Scarlet Witch, Captain Marvel, Dr Strange, Spider Man*, Black Panther, Falcon/Captain America, Ant-Man and Wasp being the core.  And since the Eternals are rumored to be next, maybe bring in Hercules, Moon Dragon and Silver Surfer.  Which could lead in maybe a good FF4 franchise and a X-Men reboot and bring Dr Doom and Galactus and maybe a Secret Wars storyline

 

 

*Spider Man and most of his villians are still Sony.  I would hope they will continue the partnership as it's mutually beneficial for both.  Though I'm worried with the success of Venom and the buzz for Morbius, they may not keep the partnership up.

 

[Mavric]

5 hours ago, sho said:

As for future 'Avenger' movies, I can see the characters like Scarlet Witch, Captain Marvel, Dr Strange, Spider Man*, Black Panther, Falcon/Captain America, Ant-Man and Wasp being the core.  And since the Eternals are rumored to be next, maybe bring in Hercules, Moon Dragon and Silver Surfer.  Which could lead in maybe a good FF4 franchise and a X-Men reboot and bring Dr Doom and Galactus and maybe a Secret Wars storyline

 

It was pretty much confirmed that the Avengers will continue with the "Captain Marvel will lead the Avengers going forward comment" from awhile back.  I think you've hit on the main participants.

[Cdog923]

Here's a different theory: with all the time-travel shenanigans that the Avengers get up to in Endgame, the next major, Thanos-sized villain will be Kang the Conqueror. 

[sho]

9 hours ago, Cdog923 said:

Here's a different theory: with all the time-travel shenanigans that the Avengers get up to in Endgame, the next major, Thanos-sized villain will be Kang the Conqueror. 

 

Kang would be a fun story-line as well.   And could give me what I hope happens, a good FF4 movie.

[GSG]

***SPOILERS***

 

Man's year-long quest to pay back the troll who spoiled Infinity War for him comes to beautiful fruition

[Redux]

Okay, just saw it last night.  Wow, that was a journey.

 

A little preface here, I didn't start the MCU until this last Winter as in Nov-Dec I think.  I avoided the MCU like the plague, not because I didn't want to see it but because I wanted to binge it.  And that's what I've done.  In the last 5 days I've seen Ant Man/Wasp, Doctor Strange, Ragnarok, Infinity War and Endgame all for the first time.  I studied blogs to see what order I should properly watch the 20+ films and I stuck to that guideline. *full disclosure, I haven't seen Captain Marvel yet since it's not released yet*

 

So, after these several months binging the MCU, at the conclusion of Endgame I feel incredibly sad that it's over.  As opposed to most, I feel like I just got started with these characters.  I crammed the 11yr quest into half a year.  I wish I could compare it to those who spent a decade plus enjoying these films.

 

So I see some problems with the film being mentioned, let me address a few:

 

-Peter Parker going back to HS makes perfect sense to me I guess.  He was gone for 5yrs, he didn't age 5yrs.  Those who vanished likely pick right back up where they left off.  Those who lived through it guide those who've come back.  That was my takeaway anyways.

 

-Falcon becoming Cap threw me off a bit too because yeah he's not a Gamma project like Rodger's is.  I assume he will either get a Stark suit or will receive some form of injection if we continue with him.  If not, it was simply a showing of respect from Rogers's to Falcon for being a good soldier and a good friend.

 

-I guess I don't see the criticism of Rogers's on the bench.  The movie already didn't follow typical Back to the Future time travel rules.  And Rogers's is a super soldier so aging wasn't going to be standard.  He goes back in time, has a happy life with Peggy Carter, then in his final years gets the chance to revisit the moment he went back and say goodbye to his friends one more time.  I think it's perfect since he came from the past to begin with.  EDIT* After further looking at it, there are no issues with it.  In 1970 he stole 3 vials of PYM particles, 2 used to get he and Stark back leaving one for him to use as an old man with the GPS device to come back and sit on the bench. 

 

-Thanos getting offed in the first few minutes was surprising but it fit just fine.  He used the Gantlet twice, his physicalality was completely spent, he was basically just waiting to be killed in the Garden.  Not what he wanted, but he wa okay with it since he achieved his destiny.

 

Overall that was an emotional 3hr ride.  I loved the movie.  I thought it was a great conclusion to an epic cinematic experiment.  What other franchises have 20+ films in their continuity? James Bond, but how many decades did that take?  This achievement is a landmark, especially considering the minimum amount of casting changes.

[Enhance]

4 hours ago, Redux said:

-I guess I don't see the criticism of Rogers's on the bench.  The movie already didn't follow typical Back to the Future time travel rules.  And Rogers's is a super soldier so aging wasn't going to be standard.  He goes back in time, has a happy life with Peggy Carter, then in his final years gets the chance to revisit the moment he went back and say goodbye to his friends one more time.  I think it's perfect since he came from the past to begin with.  EDIT* After further looking at it, there are no issues with it.  In 1970 he stole 3 vials of PYM particles, 2 used to get he and Stark back leaving one for him to use as an old man with the GPS device to come back and sit on the bench. 

The time travel portion technically works based on the rules Marvel vaguely set up; and vague was wise, in my opinion. (Personally, I think their rules of divergent timelines are a bit arbitrary, but I'm trying to not let my opinions on time travel influence the rules they set up. It's their world to manage so I'm trying to let that be).

 

The biggest criticism I've seen to this point is not so much criticism, but surprise, I guess? Rogers' personality throughout every single MCU movie was one of a passionate super soldier who always did the right thing, often to the detriment of himself and his relationships with others. (See Civil War). So, the selfish rationalization to spend an entirely new life with Peggy, one that is void of combat, saving the world, etc., just seemed totally out of character and didn't get a lot of set up. It violates everything we know about Cap. Like, while all sorts of bad things were happening in the last 70 years, domesti-Cap just stayed... at home? Raising a family? Not helping? Why? Is that because he knew his interference would disrupt how things went?

 

That said, his whole life was pretty selfless. Finally choosing to be selfish feels right for Cap, in my opinion. The dude earned it, both mentally and physically. Peggy was the love of his life and he spent literally a lifetime in perpetual heartbreak.

 

Quote

Overall that was an emotional 3hr ride.  I loved the movie.  I thought it was a great conclusion to an epic cinematic experiment.  What other franchises have 20+ films in their continuity? James Bond, but how many decades did that take?  This achievement is a landmark, especially considering the minimum amount of casting changes.

 

100% agree. In more ways than one, what we've been able to experience this last decade is nothing short of cinematic masterpiece. Some of the movies weren't even that good but, as a conglomerate, it's fascinating.

[Landlord]

8 minutes ago, Enhance said:

The time travel portion technically works based on the rules Marvel vaguely set up; and vague was wise, in my opinion. (Personally, I think their rules of divergent timelines are a bit arbitrary, but I'm trying to not let my opinions on time travel influence the rules they set up. It's their world to manage so I'm trying to let that be).

 

The biggest criticism I've seen to this point is not so much criticism, but surprise, I guess? Rogers' personality throughout every single MCU movie was one of a passionate super soldier who always did the right thing, often to the detriment of himself and his relationships with others. (See Civil War). So, the selfish rationalization to spend an entirely new life with Peggy, one that is void of combat, saving the world, etc., just seemed totally out of character and didn't get a lot of set up. It violates everything we know about Cap. Like, while all sorts of bad things were happening in the last 70 years, domesti-Cap just stayed... at home? Raising a family? Not helping? Why? Is that because he knew his interference would disrupt how things went?

 

That said, his whole life was pretty selfless. Finally choosing to be selfish feels right for Cap, in my opinion. The dude earned it, both mentally and physically. Peggy was the love of his life and he spent literally a lifetime in perpetual heartbreak.

 

 

100% agree. In more ways than one, what we've been able to experience this last decade is nothing short of cinematic masterpiece. Some of the movies weren't even that good but, as a conglomerate, it's fascinating.

 

 

 

It's kind of fun because the writers and directors actually disagree on the proper interpretation of old man Rogers coming back. The writers insist he stayed in the same timeline throughout the past, letting HYDRA inflitrate SHIELD and experiment on his friend for 70 years, etc., and that there were essentially two Captain America's alive that whole time. The directors say that he caused a divergent timeline which became his new reality for 70+ years, and he just traveled into ours to say hi real quick.

 

 

 

[Enhance]

1 hour ago, Landlord said:

It's kind of fun because the writers and directors actually disagree on the proper interpretation of old man Rogers coming back. The writers insist he stayed in the same timeline throughout the past, letting HYDRA inflitrate SHIELD and experiment on his friend for 70 years, etc., and that there were essentially two Captain America's alive that whole time. The directors say that he caused a divergent timeline which became his new reality for 70+ years, and he just traveled into ours to say hi real quick.

In some ways, it almost seems like it's both. The movie suggests there won't be any divergent realities so long as you return the stones to the moment you took them. And they made a big deal out of not causing those divergent realities. But, just being in those other realities and influencing people will cause divergent realities, right?

 

Because, Cap staying in the past HAD to have created a divergent timeline, just like the universe that Thanos traveled from HAD to now have a divergent timeline because Thanos would no longer exist in it.

 

To me, it is a minor gripe because it's not really clear what happened. There are interpretive questions and plot hole questions, and this feels like the latter just a bit.

[knapplc]

11 minutes ago, Enhance said:

Because, Cap staying in the past HAD to have created a divergent timeline, just like the universe that Thanos traveled from HAD to now have a divergent timeline because Thanos would no longer exist in it.

 

What a wonderful world that would be.

[Cdog923]

17 minutes ago, Enhance said:

In some ways, it almost seems like it's both. The movie suggests there won't be any divergent realities so long as you return the stones to the moment you took them. And they made a big deal out of not causing those divergent realities. But, just being in those other realities and influencing people will cause divergent realities, right?

 

Because, Cap staying in the past HAD to have created a divergent timeline, just like the universe that Thanos traveled from HAD to now have a divergent timeline because Thanos would no longer exist in it.

 

To me, it is a minor gripe because it's not really clear what happened. There are interpretive questions and plot hole questions, and this feels like the latter just a bit.

 

This is the way I see it. Cap creates a divergent timeline by staying in the past after returning the stone. He then lives his life and returns to his own timeline to give the shield to Sam.