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Roundball Shaman

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Warm Team vs. Cold Team 2018 BOWL GAMES TALLY

Warm (or Warmer) Team Beats Cold Team = 12 Times

Alabama over Oklahoma
Alabama Birmingham over Northern Illinois
Auburn over Purdue
Baylor over Vanderbilt
Clemson over Notre Dame
Duke over Temple
Florida over Michigan
FIU over Toledo
Georgia Southern over Eastern Michigan
Stanford over Pittsburgh
Troy over Buffalo
Wake Forest over Memphis

Cold Team Beats Warm Team = 7 Times

Army over Houston
Iowa over Mississippi State
Marshall over South Florida
Minnesota over Georgia Tech
Ohio over San Diego State
Utah State over North Texas
Wisconsin over Miami

Cold vs. Cold:
Appalachian State over Middle Tennessee
BYU over Western Michigan
Kentucky over Pennsylvania State
Nevada over Arkansas State
Northwestern over Utah
Ohio State over Washington
Oklahoma State over Missouri
Oregon over Michigan State
Syracuse over West Virginia
Washington State over Iowa State

Warm vs. Warm:
Fresno State over Arizona State
LSU over UCF
Louisiana Tech over Hawaii
North Carolina A&T over Alcorn State
Texas over Georgia
Texas A&M over North Carolina State
TCU over California
Tulane over Louisiana Lafayette

Toss-Up Climates:
Cincinnati over Virginia Tech
Virginia over South Carolina

2018-19 National Champion: Warm Weather Team

2018 Bowls
Warm over Cold = 12 Times (63%)
Cold over Warm = 7 Times (37%)

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2 hours ago, Roundball Shaman said:

Warm Team vs. Cold Team 2018 BOWL GAMES TALLY

Warm (or Warmer) Team Beats Cold Team = 12 Times

Alabama over Oklahoma
Alabama Birmingham over Northern Illinois
Auburn over Purdue
Baylor over Vanderbilt
Clemson over Notre Dame
Duke over Temple
Florida over Michigan
FIU over Toledo
Georgia Southern over Eastern Michigan
Stanford over Pittsburgh
Troy over Buffalo
Wake Forest over Memphis

Cold Team Beats Warm Team = 7 Times

Army over Houston
Iowa over Mississippi State
Marshall over South Florida
Minnesota over Georgia Tech
Ohio over San Diego State
Utah State over North Texas
Wisconsin over Miami

Cold vs. Cold:
Appalachian State over Middle Tennessee
BYU over Western Michigan
Kentucky over Pennsylvania State
Nevada over Arkansas State
Northwestern over Utah
Ohio State over Washington
Oklahoma State over Missouri
Oregon over Michigan State
Syracuse over West Virginia
Washington State over Iowa State

Warm vs. Warm:
Fresno State over Arizona State
LSU over UCF
Louisiana Tech over Hawaii
North Carolina A&T over Alcorn State
Texas over Georgia
Texas A&M over North Carolina State
TCU over California
Tulane over Louisiana Lafayette

Toss-Up Climates:
Cincinnati over Virginia Tech
Virginia over South Carolina

2018-19 National Champion: Warm Weather Team

2018 Bowls
Warm over Cold = 12 Times (63%)
Cold over Warm = 7 Times (37%)

Many of those are warm vs warm 

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yeah i don't think you can really count a school in tennessee as anything resembling a cold weather team, which you did at least 3 times.

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51 minutes ago, In the Deed the Glory said:

Somebody go tell Oklahoma people they live in a cold state

Oklahoma can be hot as balls well into October. 

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nevada is a cold weather school? ohio state is a cold weather school but cincinnati isnt? clemson is a warm weather but south carolina isnt? i am so confused now.

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On 1/3/2019 at 9:00 AM, dvdcrr said:

I think TO is pretty well respected in CFB, you know had a vote on the Committee and all.

 

Then again, so did Condolezza Rice...

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2 hours ago, desertshox said:

nevada is a cold weather school? ohio state is a cold weather school but cincinnati isnt? clemson is a warm weather but south carolina isnt? i am so confused now.

 

You'll be less confused if you ignore the entire premise and move on with your life.

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This entire thread is pointless. There are quite a few schools on his "cold" list that really aren't cold. It's all subjective. The better team usually wins. simple as that

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16 minutes ago, Street Novelist said:

This entire thread is pointless. There are quite a few schools on his "cold" list that really aren't cold. It's all subjective. The better team usually wins. simple as that

Agree. This thread is off season banter due to football boredom 

 

better coach better players win 

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If this works...here are all the latitudes for all the schools that played in bowl games. If you really want to argue North/South.  All are degrees North

Lincoln is included for reference.

HAWAII

Honolulu

21.3000

MIAMI

Coral Gables

25.7167

FLORIDA INT

Miami

25.7753

USF

Tampa

27.9681

UCF

Orlando

28.5400

FLORIDA

Gainesville

29.6520

HOU

Houston

29.7628

TULANE

New Orleans LA

29.9500

ULL

Lafayette LA

30.2167

TEXAS

Austin

30.2667

LSU

Baton Rouge

30.4475

T A&M

College Station

30.6014

BAYLOR

Waco TX

31.5847

TROY

Troy AL

31.8089

GA SOUTHRN

Statesboro

32.4453

TCU

Fort Worth TX

32.4500

L TECH

Ruston

32.5297

AUBURN

Auburn

32.5978

SDSU

San Diego

32.7150

ALABAMA

Tuscaloosa

33.2067

UNTx

Denton

33.2164

ARIZONA St

Tempe

33.4128

MS St

Starkville

33.4625

UAB

Birmingham

33.6533

GA TECH

Atlanta

33.7550

UGA

Athens

33.9500

SC

Columbia

34.0006

CLEMSOM

Clemson SC

34.6850

MEMPHIS

Memphis

35.1175

OKLA

Norman

35.2200

NC St

Raleigh

35.7667

ARKANSAS St

Jonesboro

35.8281

MT St

Murfreeboro

35.8461

DUKE

Durham NC

35.9886

WAKE F

Winst-Salem NC

36.1028

OK St

Stillwater

36.1160

VAN

Nashville

36.1667

APP

Boone NC

36.2114

FRESNO

Fresno

36.7500

V TECH*

Blacksburg (Median)

37.2300 

STANFORD

Palo Alto

37.4292

CALIFORNIA

Berkeley

37.8717

KENTUCKY

Lexington

38.0297

UVA

Charlottesville

38.0300

MRSH

Huntington WV

38.4208

MIZZOU

Columbia

38.9514

CINNCINATI

Cincinnati

39.1233

OHIO

Athens

39.3292

NEV

Reno

39.5272

OSU

Columbus

39.5900

WVU

Morgantown

39.6336

TEMPLE

Philadelphia PA

39.9528

BYU

Provo Ut

40.2444

PITT

Pittsburgh

40.4397

PURDUE

West Lafayette IN

40.4419

UTAH

Salt Lake City

40.7500

PSU

State College

40.7914

UNL

Lincoln

40.8089

ARMY

West Point NY

41.3833

IOWA

Iowa City

41.6600

TOLEDO

Toledo

41.6656

ND

Notre Dame IN

41.7030

USU

Logan

41.7378

NIU

DeKalb

41.9314

ISU

Ames

42.0347

NW

Evanston IL

42.0464

E MICHIGAN

Ypsilanti

42.2428

MICH

Ann Arbor

42.2814

WMU

Kalamazoo

42.2900

MSU

East Lansing

42.7347

BUFFALO

Buffalo NY

42.9047

SYR

Syracuse NY

43.0469

WIS

Madison

43.0667

OREGON

Eugene

44.0519

MINN

St. Paul

44.9553

WASH St

Pullman

46.7333

WASH

Seattle

47.6097

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Watching the game now- Alabama does not deserve to be talked about with the best teams of all time. Great team- best ever talks no. ESPN always jumps too soon on best ever talks before the season even finishes. Remember 05 USC - it was practically before the season started 

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27 minutes ago, Huskers93-97 said:

Watching the game now- Alabama does not deserve to be talked about with the best teams of all time. Great team- best ever talks no. ESPN always jumps too soon on best ever talks before the season even finishes. Remember 05 USC - it was practically before the season started 

 

This one is different than '05.  Clemson looks better.  USC, to me, looked better than Texas...but Vince Young was superman.  I watched every snap in '05.  They're a Reggie Bush are-you-kidding-me lateral OR a 4 and inches away from back to back.  

 

ETA...Bama's first two plays they are playing hungry in the 2nd half.

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16 minutes ago, DefenderAO said:

 

This one is different than '05.  Clemson looks better.  USC, to me, looked better than Texas...but Vince Young was superman.  I watched every snap in '05.  They're a Reggie Bush are-you-kidding-me lateral OR a 4 and inches away from back to back.  

 

ETA...Bama's first two plays they are playing hungry in the 2nd half.

Not saying 05 was not great. But to dub them greatest of all time all season then you don’t even win the natty just doesn’t age well. Coulda, woulda, shoulda. If your best of all time or want considered you don’t lose the natty game. That’s all I’m saying 

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39 minutes ago, DefenderAO said:

 

This one is different than '05.  Clemson looks better.  USC, to me, looked better than Texas...but Vince Young was superman.  I watched every snap in '05.  They're a Reggie Bush are-you-kidding-me lateral OR a 4 and inches away from back to back.  

 

ETA...Bama's first two plays they are playing hungry in the 2nd half.

That reggie bush lateral was the dumbest play I've ever witnessed.

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In December 2017 a bunch of sources picked up this 538 story that said, based on Elo ratings, the 17-18 Crimson Tide edged out the '95 Huskers by 0.3 as the best college team ever:  https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/we-rate-alabama-the-strongest-team-in-college-football-history/

 

Of course, Alabama went on to lose the national championship that year to Clemson.  

 

The same thing appears to be happening this year, both as to the Alabama hype and the collapse in the national championship. 

 

I never saw a revision of that 2017 story but this year 538 is rating the 3 best college teams since 2000 as the 18-19 Crimison Tide, the 17-18 Crimson Tide, and the 18-19 Clemson Tigers, in that order:  https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-best-and-worst-teams-of-2018-in-almost-any-sport/

 

If the '95 Huskers were that close the 17-18 Crimson Tide and both that Tide team and this year's lose the Championship, then I guess the argument become '95 Huskers vs 18-19 Clemson... (unfortunately, 538 used two different Elo numbers in those stories, so you can't compare Nebraska vs Clemson directly).

 

 

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The only weather debate I think is worth anything is how many warm weather schools play a cold weather game, especially on the road? 

 

Lets see these here warm weather schools play one damn game in 33 degree weather with 20mph winds up north. 

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1 hour ago, Huskers93-97 said:

Not saying 05 was not great. But to dub them greatest of all time all season then you don’t even win the natty just doesn’t age well. Coulda, woulda, shoulda. If your best of all time or want considered you don’t lose the natty game. That’s all I’m saying 

 

Understood.  But the game tonight has a much different feel than '05.  USC wins 8 of 10 against that '05 UT team.  38-26, with a terrible turnover, in the 4th?  And they blow it...

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While warm weather teams have dominated college football for some time now, that doesn’t mean things aren’t shifting around. Things always will.

 

Evidenced last night, when a presumed Best Of All Time coach was soundly defeated by a fellow Warm Weather program and an opponent that was determined to knock The Roll Tides off their mighty high perch.

 

The Tide will not go away. They will continue to attract upper-level talent from the pool of young stars who for the time being will gravitate to a famous coach and a big name program. But that coach doesn’t look as invincible as he did a few days ago and that big name school is not the new champion they felt entitled to be. Does that big name coach now feel more attracted to the NFL since the college titles may not be as easily forthcoming? That’s for him to decide.

 

In any event, these events are good for the Huskers. They know what it is to be the Best College Program in the World. They also know how much it hurts to fall off that high perch. And how hard it can be to get back up there. Just ask teams like USC and Notre Dame and Tennessee and others how hard it is to claim the Top Spot after so many years of trying and failing. They know the feeling.

 

Success is promised to no one. Hard work, a good plan, and some fortunate luck is the recipe. The Tide have had it for a while. Now it’s someone else’s turn.

 

And we watch the tide rising in the Land of Corn.

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Let's be real. If being in a warm weather area were really what mattered, teams from Arizona would be dominating college football.

 

994px-New_2000_black_density.gif

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4 hours ago, Roundball Shaman said:

While warm weather teams have dominated college football for some time now, that doesn’t mean things aren’t shifting around. Things always will.

 

Evidenced last night, when a presumed Best Of All Time coach was soundly defeated by a fellow Warm Weather program and an opponent that was determined to knock The Roll Tides off their mighty high perch.

 

The Tide will not go away. They will continue to attract upper-level talent from the pool of young stars who for the time being will gravitate to a famous coach and a big name program. But that coach doesn’t look as invincible as he did a few days ago and that big name school is not the new champion they felt entitled to be. Does that big name coach now feel more attracted to the NFL since the college titles may not be as easily forthcoming? That’s for him to decide.

 

In any event, these events are good for the Huskers. They know what it is to be the Best College Program in the World. They also know how much it hurts to fall off that high perch. And how hard it can be to get back up there. Just ask teams like USC and Notre Dame and Tennessee and others how hard it is to claim the Top Spot after so many years of trying and failing. They know the feeling.

 

Success is promised to no one. Hard work, a good plan, and some fortunate luck is the recipe. The Tide have had it for a while. Now it’s someone else’s turn.

 

And we watch the tide rising in the Land of Corn.

It’s great to read a post from someone not drinking the “you don’t have a chance unless your from the south kool aide” 

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WHOA NELLIE!  I guess the GOAT got took behind da woodshed!

The Oregonian:  "Alabamas failing grade vs. Clemson came via COACHING" (emphasis added)

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.oregonlive.com/ducks/2019/01/canzano-alabamas-failing-grade-vs-clemson-came-via-coaching.html%3foutputType=amp

 

dvdcrr

Posted Jan. 1

Greatest of all time? To me when he lines up against Dabo, Saban isn't even the best coach in the stadium

 

I mean, I'm not sayin, I'm just sayin!

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14 hours ago, Toe said:

Let's be real. If being in a warm weather area were really what mattered, teams from Arizona would be dominating college football.

 

994px-New_2000_black_density.gif

 

Whoa, what the hell are you trying to say with this chart?

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7 minutes ago, Toe said:

@Ulty I'm just saying that Puerto Rico needs to get into football more. :thumbs

 

Please explain further. Because it looks like a Jimmy the Greek kind of comment.

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2018-19 is now in the books. As said before, since 2003 only one cold weather team has won a national title: Ohio State in 2014.

 

It can also be pointed out that in the last 16 years, only one WESTERN team has won a national title - USC back in 2004. For over a generation now, no team west of Austin, Texas has won. And Texas only won once. And USC had to vacate the 2004 title anyway.

 

So it’s not just a Cold-Warm thing. It’s also an East-West thing. And more.

 

Western teams get their good share of great athletes. USC, UCLA, Arizona State, Oregon, Utah, Washington, etc. get a lot of Western talent.

 

The State of Texas is legendary for high school talent. And yet, the University of Texas at Austin has not kept up with the national college powerhouses. And no one in the Land of Corn will ever shed a tear over that. But it is notable.

 

It can be argued that at least in the last 50 years, the ONLY Western team that had any dominance has been USC. So everything west of Austin, Texas, Norman, Oklahoma, and yes - Lincoln, Nebraska, has with one single exception been a championship wasteland.

 

One of the answers is that football is just not solidly in the DNA of most of the West. The Western US has too many other things to do. And now with the growing issue of concussions and the health of young players, football is changing again. Football is already being eliminated at some high schools for lack of players. Basketball, soccer, and in the North - hockey - are the sports that are growing. Even in the South hockey is growing with solid NHL teams in Tampa/St Pete, Dallas, and Southern California. And a kid from Arizona is the biggest star in Canada right now. Many youth leagues are growing.

 

So, the Huskers are fighting trends on many fronts. The tide is rising in the Land of Corn. But that doesn’t mean that the seas will be getting any calmer.

 

And it also wouldn't hurt if more of Husker Country got to know what offsides, face-offs, and one-time-shots means.

 

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4 hours ago, Ulty said:

 

Please explain further. Because it looks like a Jimmy the Greek kind of comment.

Well....good thing we aren’t a tv network and we can have a discussion that isn’t hyper sensitive for no reason. 

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Well if football goes by the wayside due to head and other injury concerns, then hockey is certainly going to follow suit.  I would not be surprised to learn there are more head injuries in hockey than any other sport except boxing/fighting.   

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1 hour ago, BigRedBuster said:

Well....good thing we aren’t a tv network and we can have a discussion that isn’t hyper sensitive for no reason. 

So let’s have a discussion: what is he implying in this thread by a chart showing population density of “Blacks”.

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2 hours ago, Ulty said:

So let’s have a discussion: what is he implying in this thread by a chart showing population density of “Blacks”.

Hmm....well....since I didn’t post it...you would have to ask him. What do you think?

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9 hours ago, BigRedBuster said:

Hmm....well....since I didn’t post it...you would have to ask him. What do you think?

 

23 hours ago, Ulty said:

 

Whoa, what the hell are you trying to say with this chart?

 

18 hours ago, Toe said:

@Ulty I'm just saying that Puerto Rico needs to get into football more. :thumbs

 

18 hours ago, Ulty said:

 

Please explain further. Because it looks like a Jimmy the Greek kind of comment.

 

Well, I guess I can ask a third time. I would hate to jump to a negative conclusion since Toe has always been a solid poster. Come on, @Toe, what were you trying to say with your chart?

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3 minutes ago, Ulty said:

 

 

 

 

Well, I guess I can ask a third time. I would hate to jump to a negative conclusion since Toe has always been a solid poster. Come on, @Toe, what were you trying to say with your chart?

Why are you trying to make up a negative connotation?

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11 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

Why are you trying to make up a negative connotation?

I'm trying to understand the intent of the chart in this topic. What am I making up?

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23 minutes ago, Ulty said:

I'm trying to understand the intent of the chart in this topic. What am I making up?

Don’t know. But, it appears you’re assuming it’s negative. 

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1 hour ago, Ulty said:

 

 

 

 

Well, I guess I can ask a third time. I would hate to jump to a negative conclusion since Toe has always been a solid poster. Come on, @Toe, what were you trying to say with your chart?

To be completely blunt I think he is trying to say there is a correlation between the density of African Americans and the success of college programs in those areas. And lets be 100% honest, that those areas do have a larger number of great athletes then the areas of the map that are not as dense with African Americans. I don't think he is trying to be racist, but I can see where it totally came across that way. 

 

Programs in that area are more likely to keep those athletes, due to location to those athletes. We always harp on our 500 mile radius, well you can bet they are trying to do the same. Hell look at Miami back in the 80's and how they tried to win "The State of Miami". It's no different. Again Toe's map is showing that their is a correlation between the density of African Americans and the success of programs in those areas, and that if the map was flipped and the density of African Americans was much higher in the north than in the south then it's a reasonable assumption that the programs in the north would be winning more Championships then the teams in the south. 

 

Again I don't think he is trying to be racist, but instead just pointing out what he believes to be the reason for the south's success 

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On 1/7/2019 at 10:13 PM, quesadilla said:

In December 2017 a bunch of sources picked up this 538 story that said, based on Elo ratings, the 17-18 Crimson Tide edged out the '95 Huskers by 0.3 as the best college team ever:  https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/we-rate-alabama-the-strongest-team-in-college-football-history/

 

Of course, Alabama went on to lose the national championship that year to Clemson.  

 

The same thing appears to be happening this year, both as to the Alabama hype and the collapse in the national championship. 

 

I never saw a revision of that 2017 story but this year 538 is rating the 3 best college teams since 2000 as the 18-19 Crimison Tide, the 17-18 Crimson Tide, and the 18-19 Clemson Tigers, in that order:  https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-best-and-worst-teams-of-2018-in-almost-any-sport/

 

If the '95 Huskers were that close the 17-18 Crimson Tide and both that Tide team and this year's lose the Championship, then I guess the argument become '95 Huskers vs 18-19 Clemson... (unfortunately, 538 used two different Elo numbers in those stories, so you can't compare Nebraska vs Clemson directly).

 

 

17-18 Tide won the championship

16-17 Tide lost- this is the team they had rated as the best

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23 hours ago, Husker from Kansas said:

To be completely blunt I think he is trying to say there is a correlation between the density of African Americans and the success of college programs in those areas. And lets be 100% honest, that those areas do have a larger number of great athletes then the areas of the map that are not as dense with African Americans. I don't think he is trying to be racist, but I can see where it totally came across that way. 

 

Programs in that area are more likely to keep those athletes, due to location to those athletes. We always harp on our 500 mile radius, well you can bet they are trying to do the same. Hell look at Miami back in the 80's and how they tried to win "The State of Miami". It's no different. Again Toe's map is showing that their is a correlation between the density of African Americans and the success of programs in those areas, and that if the map was flipped and the density of African Americans was much higher in the north than in the south then it's a reasonable assumption that the programs in the north would be winning more Championships then the teams in the south. 

 

Again I don't think he is trying to be racist, but instead just pointing out what he believes to be the reason for the south's success 

 

Thanks HfK. I'm very disappointed that @Toe refused to clarify his thoughts on this. When he put up that map, it was sort of a drive-by post correlating the success of southern teams to race, which begs for clarification. I appreciate your response, because at least you are attempting to examine it. Dropping a racial component into the discussion, and then refusing to engage with anything other than a short snarky comment about Puerto Rico (and I appreciate snark as much as anyone), is not constructive.

 

Like you said in the bolded, I hope there is not racism is his intent and it is simply misunderstood, but of course it can come off that way. Like I said earlier, Toe is a solid contributor on this board. I hate to see this sort of behavior (suggesting something racial and then running away), and I intend to call out that sort of thing.

 

Maybe it belongs in another thread, but if I'm wrong, or overreacting, I'm willing to discuss. 

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11 minutes ago, Ulty said:

Maybe it belongs in another thread, but if I'm wrong, or overreacting, I'm willing to discuss. 

 

There’s nothing racist inherent here. There’s nothing racist if I stated no white athlete has won the men’s 100m sprint in the Olymics since 1980 or that there are no white CBs in the NFL. It would be racist to suggest a particular person couldn’t participate in such ventures, provided they had the skills, simply because of their race.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, brophog said:

 

There’s nothing racist inherent here. There’s nothing racist if I stated no white athlete has won the men’s 100m sprint in the Olymics since 1980 or that there are no white CBs in the NFL. It would be racist to suggest a particular person couldn’t participate in such ventures, provided they had the skills, simply because of their race.

 

 

I agree with you here. Wouldnt it actually be more of a compliment? I mean dont most people want to be a great athlete? Im confused I guess.

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4 hours ago, Huskers93-97 said:

I agree with you here. Wouldnt it actually be more of a compliment? I mean dont most people want to be a great athlete? Im confused I guess.

 

 

More of a compliment to...who?

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AP/National Champs (1936-2008)

Alabama 1961, 1964, 1965, 1978, 1979, 1992, 2009, 2011, 2012, 2015, 2017
Army 1944, 1945
Auburn 1957, 2010
BYU 1984
Clemson 1981, 2016, 2018
Colorado 1990
Florida 1996, 2006, 2008
Florida State 1993, 1999, 2013
Georgia 1980
LSU 1958, 2007
Maryland 1953
Miami 1983, 1987, 1989, 1991, 2001
Michigan 1948, 1997
Michigan State 1952
Minnesota 1936, 1940, 1941, 1960
Nebraska 1970, 1971, 1994, 1995, 1997
Notre Dame 1943, 1946, 1947, 1949, 1966, 1973, 1977, 1988
Ohio State 1942, 1954, 1968, 2002, 2014
Oklahoma 1950, 1955, 1956, 1974, 1975, 1985, 2000
Pennsylvania State 1982, 1986
Pittsburgh 1937, 1976
Southern California 1962, 1967, 1972, 2003, 2004 (vacated)
Syracuse 1959
Tennessee 1951, 1998
Texas A & M 1939
Texas Christian 1938
Texas 1963, 1969, 2005

Based upon Championships won, the greatest football programs are:

1. Alabama
2. Notre Dame
3. Oklahoma
4.* Ohio State (2014)
5.* Miami (2001)
6.* Nebraska (1997)
*Tied win 5 titles - ranked By Most Recent Title Won

Notre Dame has not won since 1988 so their success is rooted in the past.
Miami had a good 20-year run and nothing lately.
Alabama, Ohio State, and Oklahoma have the most staying-power winning titles during a 50 year span.

Nebraska has had two great decades. Huskers have a tougher road now for national titles. For years, the Huskers could dominate the Big 8, get past the Oklahoma game, and then win a good bowl game. Now, Huskers have to win a tougher division, win a strong conference title, and win two final games against top opponents. Can be done - just tougher than before.

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