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B.B. Hemingway

How far Left, could a Leftist Left, if a Leftist could Left, Left.

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1 hour ago, StPaulHusker said:

If you want to continue to be influenced by gotcha tweets from people like the one you posted, it's quite possible you know even less than she does.

 

 

 

:facepalm:

 

Considering I'm in the Landscaping field, and she's the politician, I sure hope that's the case.

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Just now, B.B. Hemingway said:

 

:facepalm:

 

Considering I'm in the Landscaping field, and she's the politician, I sure hope that's the case.

But you don't believe she is and choose to use tweets by people with an obvious political lean to try and show her lack of knowledge.

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18 hours ago, Fru said:

Shapiro talks quick and articulate, gives dubious statistics, often says "studies show" (without giving specifics on said studies), then demands precise details of people he's debating. Additionally he frames his opponents arguments in a wholly inaccurate manner, much like the ACO dancing tweet. He's quick witted and has made a living off "debating" ill prepared college students. His "Facts don't care about your feelings" trope rings rather hollow when the progressive policies he critiques as "insane" have been proven to work effectively in other first world countries.  

 

Not to derail the thread, but this is also a pretty decent description of The Daily Show & John Oliver's show.

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Just now, StPaulHusker said:

But you don't believe she is and choose to use tweets by people with an obvious political lean to try and show her lack of knowledge.

 

I don't think she knows more about political policies than me? When did I say that? I'm quite certain she does, and she most definitely should considering the position she's in. My only issues with AOC is that she has already shown a habit for fibbery. She's admitted that she thinks what feels good, is more important than being factually correct. And her policies fall way too far Left for me.

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1 minute ago, knapplc said:

 

Not to derail the thread, but this is also a pretty decent description of The Daily Show & John Oliver's show.

 Not to contribute to the derailment, but Shapiro has quite a bit more political intellect than either of those two, or at least what they choose to show.... Both of those shows have turned into 30min-1hr "Trump" bit.... John Oliver is funny. Trevor Noah? Maybe it's because he followed a legend, but I think he's terrible.

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2 minutes ago, B.B. Hemingway said:

 

I don't think she knows more about political policies than me? When did I say that? I'm quite certain she does, and she most definitely should considering the position she's in. My only issues with AOC is that she has already shown a habit for fibbery. She's admitted that she thinks what feels good, is more important than being factually correct. And her policies fall way too far Left for me.

 

You have posted here that you think she is inept at her job.  It's on page 2.  So one can only draw the conclusion that if you think she is inept, you have to know more about policy than she does.  Otherwise you couldn't know if she is or she isn't inept.

 

 

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24 minutes ago, StPaulHusker said:

 

You have posted here that you think she is inept at her job.  It's on page 2.  So one can only draw the conclusion that if you think she is inept, you have to know more about policy than she does.  Otherwise you couldn't know if she is or she isn't inept.

 

 

 

You've never criticized anyone in a different field, like say, a Nebraska football coach, or player? Never anything like that?  Interesting.

 

Just because I don't think she's shown the knowledge to be a member of Congress, doesn't mean I think I'm qualified.

 

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3 minutes ago, B.B. Hemingway said:

 

You've never criticized anyone in a different field, like say, a Nebraska football coach, or player? Never anything like that?  Interesting.

 

Just because I don't think she's shown the knowledge to be a member of Congress, doesn't mean I think I'm qualified.

 

 

I'm sure I have criticized people.  I usually don't back it up with partial truth tweets though

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17 minutes ago, knapplc said:

 

Not to derail the thread, but this is also a pretty decent description of The Daily Show & John Oliver's show.

 

I'd be hesitant to say they're equal opposites. Daily Show and John Oliver are comedians lampooning the political landscape. Shapiro is being exalted as one of the great conservative minds of our time. Jon Stewart took up political causes and involved himself in pushing for legislation. Shapiro, to my knowledge, hasn't done so. Shapiro made his bones by going on college tours to "debate" ill-prepared college students. Noah and Stewart interview established and accomplished guests. I'm unsure as to why you think they're comparable. 

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6 minutes ago, Fru said:

 

I'd be hesitant to say they're equal opposites. Daily Show and John Oliver are comedians lampooning the political landscape. Shapiro is being exalted as one of the great conservative minds of our time. Jon Stewart took up political causes and involved himself in pushing for legislation. Shapiro, to my knowledge, hasn't done so. Shapiro made his bones by going on college tours to "debate" ill-prepared college students. Noah and Stewart interview established and accomplished guests. I'm unsure as to why you think they're comparable. 

 

The method is not dissimilar.

 

Which is probably not a great endorsement for Shapiro, since he's basically doing the same kind of show as comedians.

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I'm going to give Shapiro credit that he has just spoke up against the racist from Iowa, Steve King, calling for him to be censured and primaried.

 

Unfortunately, the people in King's area like them some racism as they could have voted him out in November.

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39 minutes ago, StPaulHusker said:

 

I'm sure I have criticized people.  I usually don't back it up with partial truth tweets though

 

What does that have to do with thinking you'd be better at a job than someone, because you're critical of that person?:facepalm:

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1 hour ago, knapplc said:

 

Not to derail the thread, but this is also a pretty decent description of The Daily Show & John Oliver's show.

 

 

They are similar. The biggest distinction being that while Oliver/Noah/previously Stewart would be loose or selective enough with facts to craft a compelling (yet usually not inaccurate) narrative, they don't necessarily try to trap their opponents in a corner or prey on their lack of training with public debate. The only time they engage in anything similarly manipulative as that is when they make those funny video montages interviewing dummies in the street.

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2 hours ago, StPaulHusker said:

I'm going to give Shapiro credit that he has just spoke up against the racist from Iowa, Steve King, calling for him to be censured and primaried.

 

Unfortunately, the people in King's area like them some racism as they could have voted him out in November.

 

 

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Just now, StPaulHusker said:

 

 

Well s#!t

 

Again I probably have to listen to more of Shapiro's stuff to get a better read on him. I started his LONG Joe Rogan interview (2 hr 40 min) on Youtube last night. But this doesn't seem great.

 

Criticize the guy in pubic to look independent-minded, but schmooze him behind the scenes.

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3 minutes ago, Clifford Franklin said:

 

Again I probably have to listen to more of Shapiro's stuff to get a better read on him. I started his LONG Joe Rogan interview (2 hr 40 min) on Youtube last night. But this doesn't seem great.

 

Criticize the guy in pubic to look independent-minded, but schmooze him behind the scenes.

 

I should have known better

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7 minutes ago, Clifford Franklin said:

 

Again I probably have to listen to more of Shapiro's stuff to get a better read on him. I started his LONG Joe Rogan interview (2 hr 40 min) on Youtube last night. But this doesn't seem great.

 

Criticize the guy in pubic to look independent-minded, but schmooze him behind the scenes.

That interview will tell you alot about Shapiro. I am not fond of the guy. He has a very rigid point of view that he frames as factual and watertight but the issues he discusses are not the black and white pictures he paints.

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2 hours ago, Landlord said:

 

 

They are similar. The biggest distinction being that while Oliver/Noah/previously Stewart would be loose or selective enough with facts to craft a compelling (yet usually not inaccurate) narrative, they don't necessarily try to trap their opponents in a corner or prey on their lack of training with public debate. The only time they engage in anything similarly manipulative as that is when they make those funny video montages interviewing dummies in the street.

 

That's true, I spaced that. But even then, that stuff isn't their entire schtick, and is the kind of stuff one would expect from comedians, not a celebrated political mind. 

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On 1/10/2019 at 1:07 PM, Clifford Franklin said:

 

 

 

 

 

I didn't really even need this. I've heard one of Shapiro's podcasts or speeches where he was explaining about how Black people aren't at any kind of disadvantage.

 

 

Below is a video where he seems to never have heard of marijuana or the fact that usage of marijuana is not significantly different for Blacks and Whites but the arrest rate of Blacks for marijuana is 4x as high as it is for Whites and is highly correlated with the increase in single parent Black families. I would like him to explain to me why the arrest rate for Blacks is so much higher for doing the same thing at a similar rate to Whites.

 

county_distribution_disparities.png

 

The war on drugs started in 1971. From 1970 to 1980 the % of children born to unmarried Black women increased from ~36% to ~56%. In that same time period, the % of children born to unmarried White women increased from 5% to 12%.

 

 

maritaldecline.jpg

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, B.B. Hemingway said:

downloadfile.gif

 

 

You're wrong if you agree with this guy. "It's a culture problem" is subconscious/veiled racism. It's an opinion that relies only on feelings and no data. No matter how smart Shapiro makes it sound, he has zero data to back up what he's spewing when he says this. He's listing out a bunch of things that are negatives while trying to sound angry, but he has nothing to back up his conclusion on the cause of these things, which is that it's a cultural problem only. It's pretty easy to see how his arguments work. Just come up with a made up cause of something, then state a bunch of facts about the something in order to sound smart. I think he is smart, but he's relying on the fact that no one can check the data while he's giving a speech, and he can mislead with the data.

 

You can take each and every one of the things he pukes out angrily and there is an explanation on why that has nothing to do with whatever culture problem he's talking about. I'll take one of them - "You tell me why Black kids aren't graduating high school!" Black kids are more likely to attend schools with below average funding. Black kids are less likely to have parents and grandparents who received a high school or college education. Their grandparents and great grandparents grew up when there was still segregation. It's a legitimate/valid reason. Those people are alive right now. It wasn't that long ago.

And before anyone starts the "but there are poor White people who make it" argument, we're talking about a rate. Black people are successful, too, but the rate is lower because more are born into poverty.

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Here's another example of his assumption his audience is stupid. He purposely leaves out the poverty rate for non-married Black families and White married couples, because that's the correct comparison to make but the data likely refutes his point. That data would show that Black married couples are poorer than White married couples, and Black single moms are poorer than White single moms. He's purposely misleading the audience.

 

Quote

The poverty rate among non-married white families was 22% in 2008; that same year the poverty rate among black married couples was less than 7%.
 

But what happened to racism? Why weren’t those black married couples poorer than the single white moms? Because it doesn’t have to do with color; it has to do with life decisions.

 

 

Also, no one is arguing that the only cause of poverty for a Black person is systematic racism. Not being married and facing systematic racism as a Black person can both be factors. Not being married is probably a larger one.

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I'm not totally in agreement with Shapiro that past systematic issues against the poor (all races) hasn't had anything to do with the issues in the inner cities . But I do agree that culture, and dependency is a huge problem. Poverty doesn't make you sell drugs, do drugs, pull that trigger, skip school, miss out on the minority education-handouts for college,impregnate women without the ability to support a child, join that gang, hit that woman, etc. It doesn't make you do ANY of that. And saying otherwise is ridiculous, in my opinion. It may not be easy, and it may be harder to do than it is for poor white people (though I don't think so), but it IS entirely possible to remove yourself from that environment/culture, and make something better for yourself. I won't say any more on it, because you, I, and a few others have been around this topic more than once already.

 

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12 minutes ago, B.B. Hemingway said:

I'm not totally in agreement with Shapiro that past systematic issues against the poor (all races) hasn't had anything to do with the issues in the inner cities . But I do agree that culture, and dependency is a huge problem. Poverty doesn't make you sell drugs, do drugs, pull that trigger, skip school, miss out on the education-handouts for college,impregnate women without the ability to support a child, join that gang, hit that woman, etc. It doesn't make you do ANY of that. And saying otherwise is ridiculous, in my opinion. It may not be easy, and it may be harder to do than it is for poor white people (though I don't think so), but it IS entirely possible to remove yourself from that environment/culture, and make something better for yourself. I won't say any more on it, because you, I, and a few others have been around this topic more than once already.

 

 

This is very flawed I don’t even know where to begin

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1 hour ago, B.B. Hemingway said:

I'm not totally in agreement with Shapiro that past systematic issues against the poor (all races) hasn't had anything to do with the issues in the inner cities . But I do agree that culture, and dependency is a huge problem. Poverty doesn't make you sell drugs, do drugs, pull that trigger, skip school, miss out on the minority education-handouts for college,impregnate women without the ability to support a child, join that gang, hit that woman, etc. It doesn't make you do ANY of that. And saying otherwise is ridiculous, in my opinion. It may not be easy, and it may be harder to do than it is for poor white people (though I don't think so), but it IS entirely possible to remove yourself from that environment/culture, and make something better for yourself. I won't say any more on it, because you, I, and a few others have been around this topic more than once already.

 

Just something to think about when we discuss African American and Indian population;  what happens to a group who is still trying to overcome institutional racism, when you take away their parental figures (through incarceration or force boarding school), then tell them that they should be better people while not funding their schools, their communities and continually giving them harsher penalties than their peers of other races?

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lot's of roll eyes in these last few posts.  guess the roll eye posse is hard at work

 

tumblr_inline_nvvixw3ivz1so6ef2_500.gif

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Just now, commando said:

lot's of roll eyes in these last few posts.  guess the roll eye posse hard at work

 

tumblr_inline_nvvixw3ivz1so6ef2_500.gif

Glad they can eyeroll instead of actually having a discussion. I'll take eyerolls as them not acknowledging reality and believing in ancient aliens.

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43 minutes ago, ZRod said:

Just something to think about when we discuss African American and Indian population;  what happens to a group who is still trying to overcome institutional racism, when you take away their parental figures (through incarceration or force boarding school), then tell them that they should be better people while not funding their schools, their communities and continually giving them harsher penalties than their peers of other races?

 

The removal of parents due to incarceration seems to be everybody's fault except for the person that was incarcerated. Disproportionate incarceration rates aside, if you don't want to be incarcerated, don't partake in illegal activity. Especially if you believe "the system" has it out for you.  Like I said before, none of the excuses you mentioned force them to engage in illegal doings. You don't have to be responsible for 52% of murders at only 13% of the population. Murder, and other illegal activity is a choice. Plain and simple. "Poverty made me do it", "The system made me do it" are excuses that would never be acceptable outside of the minority communities.

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1 minute ago, Clifford Franklin said:

 

The whole point of the discussion is you can't really set those aside.

 

Disproportionate incarceration rates doesn't mean all, or most of the incarcerations were wrongful.

 

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On 1/12/2019 at 11:00 AM, B.B. Hemingway said:

 

Disproportionate incarceration rates doesn't mean all, or most of the incarcerations were wrongful.

 

 

My point is it is unjust that people get treated different by our criminal justice system for committing the exact same offenses based solely on the color of their skin.

 

And frankly, everyone has their own ideas about which laws are just. Pot would be a good example. An even more benign example would be low-grade  speeding or jaywalking. Or take some of those generally ancient but yet still codified nonsense state laws that are still on the books. Should those offenses be policed to the full extent of the law?

 

If we can agree that some laws are increasingly or already incompatible with our modern civilization, how do we determine which laws to enforce and which should be eliminated?


My point is I don't think we all have the same ideas about this. Human beings inherently don't agree on these things.But people's lives shouldn't hang in the balance based on decisions by those who run our criminal justice system deciding who deserves further scrutiny, to get pulled over, to get popped for what laws, how harshly to get prosecuted, etc.

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I got lost at "poverty doesn't make a person sell drugs".   Have you not seen "Breaking Bad"?????!!!

 

 

 

All jokes aside.  I'm not impoverished, I wouldn't sell drugs or steal to support my kids.  However, if I saw my kids starving or need medical treatments I cant afford, you better believe I'm gonna do whatever it takes to feed/help them.  Laws be damned...

 

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18 minutes ago, Clifford Franklin said:

I don't understand what's confusing about my previous post. If you want me to clarify I'd be happy to.

My apologies if this was meant for me.  I was referring to B.B.'s post from above...

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1 hour ago, B.B. Hemingway said:

 

Disproportionate incarceration rates doesn't mean all, or most of the incarcerations were wrongful.

 

 

 

You're missing the point that the incarcerations are at a higher rate for the same crimes, and for longer times (19.1% longer) for the same crimes. All of the criminals should be arrested, but if Black criminals are arrested at higher rates, it's going to have a negative effect on the different outcomes that are being talked about in this thread, e.g. poverty, single parenthood, etc. If arrest rates were equal for the same crime, Blacks might not be lagging behind by as much in those areas. When it comes to drug use and possession, the rates are similar for Whites and Blacks. But Blacks are arrested at higher rates despite the same rate of crime, so their drug use and possession actually has much more of an effect on the outcomes we're talking about. If you consider drug use to be a cultural problem, both cultures have it, but if we include opioid abuse, Whites use drugs at a significantly higher rate than Blacks.

 

And I was going to look at violent crime statistics, but the shutdown has caused bjs.gov to not work, so all I can see is this part from the google link description: "Poor urban blacks (51.3 per 1,000) had rates of violence similar to poor urban whites (56.4 per 1,000)."

 

 

Here's the chart on jail time:

 

VPSX2IQRAQ4TFKGB4CD2SAHK5Y.png

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@Moiraine

 

You brought up an important corollary in this discussion: the opioid epidemic.

 

One of the more insightful revelations I have happened upon is the language (and approach) we've used towards drug crimes as a society. 

 

Remember when we had the crack epidemic in the 80s? The end result by our government was the War on Drugs, a crime bill to harshly penalize drug crimes and massive, disproportionate, lasting negative impact on African Americans in the U.S.

 

Now we're essentially going through the same thing with opioid use/abuse, which is a predominantly white problem. But now it's talked about in terms of a public health crisis and our approach stresses the importance of the need for treatment and rehabilitation of those affected instead of punishment.

 

How much of that is us learning from the err of our ways from the crack epidemic, and how much of it is because it is a white rather than a black problem?

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1 hour ago, Moiraine said:

 

 

You're missing the point that the incarcerations are at a higher rate for the same crimes, and for longer times (19.1% longer) for the same crimes. All of the criminals should be arrested, but if Black criminals are arrested at higher rates, it's going to have a negative effect on the different outcomes that are being talked about in this thread, e.g. poverty, single parenthood, etc. If arrest rates were equal for the same crime, Blacks might not be lagging behind by as much in those areas. When it comes to drug use and possession, the rates are similar for Whites and Blacks. But Blacks are arrested at higher rates despite the same rate of crime, so their drug use and possession actually has much more of an effect on the outcomes we're talking about. If you consider drug use to be a cultural problem, both cultures have it, but if we include opioid abuse, Whites use drugs at a significantly higher rate than Blacks.

 

And I was going to look at violent crime statistics, but the shutdown has caused bjs.gov to not work, so all I can see is this part from the google link description: "Poor urban blacks (51.3 per 1,000) had rates of violence similar to poor urban whites (56.4 per 1,000)."

 

 

Here's the chart on jail time:

 

VPSX2IQRAQ4TFKGB4CD2SAHK5Y.png

This is the point I'm trying to get at. When two teams start out on the 20,  but one gets a personal foul for 15 yards and the other half the distance to the goal for the same personal foul, you'd be mad at the players but screaming at the refs wouldn't you, @B.B. Hemingway?

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On 1/12/2019 at 3:39 PM, ZRod said:

This is the point I'm trying to get at. When two teams start out on the 20,  but one gets a personal foul for 15 yards and the other half the distance to the goal for the same personal foul, you'd be mad at the players but screaming at the refs wouldn't you, @B.B. Hemingway?

 

You probably need to spell out if the 15-yard penalty recipient is black, as that will likely color his reply. 

 

Take that as you will. 

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On 1/12/2019 at 3:39 PM, ZRod said:

This is the point I'm trying to get at. When two teams start out on the 20,  but one gets a personal foul for 15 yards and the other half the distance to the goal for the same personal foul, you'd be mad at the players but screaming at the refs wouldn't you, @B.B. Hemingway?

 

 

Well putting an officiating bias and conspiracy aside, the players should have just played mistake free football they've got nobody to blame but themselves.

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4 minutes ago, Landlord said:

 

 

Well putting an officiating bias and conspiracy aside, the players should have just played mistake free football they've got nobody to blame but themselves.

 

Except that you can't put bias aside, as you have humans making these calls, and sometimes they make mistakes as well...especially if the players are a certain color, as the evidence already presented in this thread points out. 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Landlord said:

 

 

Well putting an officiating bias and conspiracy aside, the players should have just played mistake free football they've got nobody to blame but themselves.

But our coaches literally teach us how to get away with cheating early on.

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2 minutes ago, ZRod said:

But our coaches literally teach us how to get away with cheating early on.

 

Guess we know who the ShaggyBevo mole on this board is. ;)

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Just want to step in and defend Last Week Tonight with John Oliver. This got on the air in the guise of a humor show, but they regularly do 15 - 20 minute segments on complicated issues like Brexit, predatory lending, and our historic relationship with Saudi Arabia, with a very high degree of investigative reporting, fact checking and meaningful context. The jokes are broad, profane and left-leaning, but the reporting is solid, verifiable, and useful. 

 

The Daily Show has always gone for the quick joke, but it also has a prolific research staff, and sometimes it's greatest function is pulling up clips of politicians directly contradicting themselves and/or getting caught in a direct lie. Don't see that practiced on the actual news networks. Not sure why. 

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5 hours ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

Don't see that practiced on the actual news networks. Not sure why.  

 

Really don't see either of those on mainstream news as much as we should.

 

If we saw more deep dive investigative work and reporting on complex issues in our society like healthcare, immigration, the Second Amendment & gun control or criminal justice reform, we'd all be a lot more informed and probably better able to craft bipartisan legislation everyone can like at least a part of.

 

As is, most news outlets are way to concerned with "BREAKING NEWS" and fall into the trap of trying to report on every silly thing POTUS says or does. It completely nerfs the ability for most of the electorate to digest these issues like they should. They're also more than happy to toss out a few lefties and a few righties and let them argue things out on air for cheap ratings while leaving all of us in our little enclaves and reinforcing our own biases.

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54 minutes ago, Clifford Franklin said:

 

Really don't see either of those on mainstream news as much as we should.

 

If we saw more deep dive investigative work and reporting on complex issues in our society like healthcare, immigration, the Second Amendment & gun control or criminal justice reform, we'd all be a lot more informed and probably better able to craft bipartisan legislation everyone can like at least a part of.

 

As is, most news outlets are way to concerned with "BREAKING NEWS" and fall into the trap of trying to report on every silly thing POTUS says or does. It completely nerfs the ability for most of the electorate to digest these issues like they should. They're also more than happy to toss out a few lefties and a few righties and let them argue things out on air for cheap ratings while leaving all of us in our little enclaves and reinforcing our own biases.

60 minutes is where it's at.

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18 minutes ago, B.B. Hemingway said:

Woke af....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This woman did an awful job of trying to explain what she was getting at.  If i were to guess, she was trying to draw a line between what the White house served to something like this.  Junk food=Fast food
 

 

 

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