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1 minute ago, TGHusker said:

What I'm saying - Trump will make it about Big regulatory govt vs limited govt.  Using socialistic economic principles vs free enterprise principles.  He will paint the GND as a step towards Venezuelan like socialism. 

 

Perhaps free enterprise might be the better phrase than democracy. 

Free Enterprise  an economic system in which private business operates in competition and largely free of state control.

Socialism: a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

Democracy:  a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to attack you - I thought those were the words coming from the article.

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7 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

Middle and poor classes haven't had a real wage increase in decades. Couple that with rising healthcare costs, student loan debt, and the effects of the Great Recession, and it may not take a recession for people to start embracing big government again. (Or maybe government-for-the-people is a more friendly term.)

I do think we (including me) are tired of pointless wars and that it is time to turn attention towards taking care of people at home. 

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1 hour ago, StPaulHusker said:

I haven’t consumed beef in over a year.  Best health decision I ever made.

 

do you still eat poultry, pork or fish?

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1 hour ago, StPaulHusker said:

I haven’t consumed beef in over a year.  Best health decision I ever made.

and...what specifically did not eating beef do to improve your health? (actual inquiry for my own knowledge)

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7 minutes ago, DevoHusker said:

and...what specifically did not eating beef do to improve your health? (actual inquiry for my own knowledge)

I still eat poultry and fish.  Pork has been limited significantly since it is considered a red meat.

 

I started noticing whenever I consumed beef or other types of red meat like bison, elk, deer, etc, I would get extremely sick.  

 

Pork doesnt have the same effect but I decided to curb it anyhow.  

 

Now I don’t get sick anymore and I’ve been in the best shape since my teens-early 20’s.

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56 minutes ago, StPaulHusker said:

I still eat poultry and fish.  Pork has been limited significantly since it is considered a red meat.

 

I started noticing whenever I consumed beef or other types of red meat like bison, elk, deer, etc, I would get extremely sick.  

 

Pork doesnt have the same effect but I decided to curb it anyhow.  

 

Now I don’t get sick anymore and I’ve been in the best shape since my teens-early 20’s.

thanks, good deal

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17 hours ago, B.B. Hemingway said:

 

This is disingenuous, comparing the market of beef production and anvil "production". Why is it that this "s#!t happens" approach is only used with opposition to liberal agendas?

 

My favorite part of the Environmental book report is that she found a way to include "economic relief for those unwilling (!) to work". :facepalm:

 

My original cow fart post was mostly joking. The government isn't going to come in and take the cows away, and beef production isn't going anywhere in the near future.

 

The free market has been moving to healthier diets for a couple generations now, and may continue to do so, but interestingly enough cheaper feed has led to cheaper meat prices, and people looking for healthier diets have been willing to swap carbs for protein. I believe beef consumption last year was near record highs.

 

But I also believe that "s#!t happens" to a lot of industries, and it's not a liberal or conservative agenda at all. It's pretty much the will of the consumer, given a preferable alternative. 

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11 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

It's pretty much the will of the consumer

 

 

This....This is beautiful. Market demanded change is something I'm more than willing to embrace. God bless capitalism.

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9 minutes ago, B.B. Hemingway said:

 

 

This....This is beautiful. Market demanded change is something I'm more than willing to embrace. God bless capitalism.

 

Well I wouldn't be a progressive if I didn't point out that capitalism can occasionally thwart the will of the consumer, or that consumers sometimes demand the kind of regulations that producers decry as anti-capitalism. 

 

I actually love the free-enterprise system, but it's not always synonymous with Capitalism. 

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Republicans taking the same road on the environment as they did health care.  They don’t have a plan but are willing to destroy anyone that does.

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On 2/7/2019 at 6:53 PM, Frott Scost said:

 

Maybe people should start thinking of their kids and grandkids livelihood and we can finally get somewhere in this country.

They do, it is why this is the best country in the world, the most freedom to do what you want,  with the most technology, some of the best universities in the world, the best chance to make something of yourself even if you come from nothing.  People in America have been thinking about their grandkids for 250 years.

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2 hours ago, teachercd said:

They do, it is why this is the best country in the world, the most freedom to do what you want,  with the most technology, some of the best universities in the world, the best chance to make something of yourself even if you come from nothing.  People in America have been thinking about their grandkids for 250 years.

 

I think you missed the part where America's academic scores have been plummeting out of First World status, especially in tech subjects like science and math, the spiraling cost of secondary education, a huge and growing disparity in wealth and opportunity, projections that millennials will be spending as much as half their income on healthcare, underscored by the fact that this will be the first generation to make less money and die earlier than their parents. 

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Also, that whole Global Climate Change thing, which some prefer to ignore completely because they'll be dead before the consequences hit.

 

That's pretty much the definition of not thinking of your grandkids.

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8 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

 

I think you missed the part where America's academic scores have been plummeting out of First World status, especially in tech subjects like science and math, the spiraling cost of secondary education, a huge and growing disparity in wealth and opportunity, projections that millennials will be spending as much as half their income on healthcare, underscored by the fact that this will be the first generation to make less money and die earlier than their parents. 

 

“The white man knows how to make everything but he does not know how to distribute it”—Sitting Bull 1885 telling Annie Oakley how white men could be so unmindful of their own poor.

 

The more things change, the more they stay the same

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14 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

 

I think you missed the part where America's academic scores have been plummeting out of First World status, especially in tech subjects like science and math, the spiraling cost of secondary education, a huge and growing disparity in wealth and opportunity, projections that millennials will be spending as much as half their income on healthcare, underscored by the fact that this will be the first generation to make less money and die earlier than their parents. 

I have yet to meet a parent that is telling their kids to do bad in school...the student has to accept some responsiblity for that.

 

Yes, college is expensive but it doesn't have to be all that expensive if you look around for the thousands of scholarships that are out there and if you load up on AP classes in high school.  

 

Healthcare is expensive.  No doubt at that!

 

Projections?  I remember the projections that we would be switching over to the metric system.

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11 minutes ago, StPaulHusker said:

 

“The white man knows how to make everything but he does not know how to distribute it”—Sitting Bull 1885 telling Annie Oakley how white men could be so unmindful of their own poor.

 

The more things change, the more they stay the same

Yeah, he also said that buildings were bad...so you gonna give up your house anytime soon...live outdoors?  Come on

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4 minutes ago, teachercd said:

I have yet to meet a parent that is telling their kids to do bad in school...the student has to accept some responsiblity for that.

 

Yes, college is expensive but it doesn't have to be all that expensive if you look around for the thousands of scholarships that are out there and if you load up on AP classes in high school.  

 

Healthcare is expensive.  No doubt at that!

 

Projections?  I remember the projections that we would be switching over to the metric system.

 

This is like holding up a snowball to prove the Earth isn't getting warmer. 

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4 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

 

This is like holding up a snowball to prove the Earth isn't getting warmer. 

This is awesome!

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7 minutes ago, teachercd said:

Yeah, he also said that buildings were bad...so you gonna give up your house anytime soon...live outdoors?  Come on

So because I agree with his sentiment about one issue, I have to agree with everything he had an opinion of?  I thought you covered this in your stance about MAGA hats.  

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1 minute ago, StPaulHusker said:

So because I agree with his sentiment about one issue, I have to agree with everything he had an opinion of?  I thought you covered this in your stance about MAGA hats.  

I did...you are the one that believes it, remember?  I was poking fun at you.

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1 minute ago, teachercd said:

I did...you are the one that believes it, remember?  I was poking fun at you.

Was just going to point that out... but quotes are different. 

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6 minutes ago, teachercd said:

I did...you are the one that believes it, remember?  I was poking fun at you.

I think you are trying to draw a conclusion that’s not there.  Agreeing with an opinion someone has on an issue is in no way an endorsement of everything they have an opinion on.

 

Purchasing items in direct support of a campaign platform is totally different.

 

 

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Just now, StPaulHusker said:

I think you are trying to draw a conclusion that’s not there.  Agreeing with an opinion someone has on an issue is in no way an endorsement of everything they have an opinion on.

 

Purchasing items in direct support of a campaign platform is totally different.

 

 

I always forget...what is the first rule of holes again?

 

 

 

 

 

Oh yeah, stop digging when you are in one.

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7 minutes ago, teachercd said:

I always forget...what is the first rule of holes again?

I think it’s rings don’t plug them.  But I could be mistaken

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Just now, StPaulHusker said:

I think it’s rings don’t plug them.  But I could be mistaken

I honestly have never heard that one.  

 

My new favorite (I wish I would have used it on a post but I forgot)

 

Drama...party of one!

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8 minutes ago, teachercd said:

I always forget...what is the first rule of holes again?

 

 

 

 

 

Oh yeah, stop digging when you are in one.

And there is no hole digging.  I thought it was an interesting observation from Sitting Bull from over 200 years ago that we still face today.  It didn’t really require you to discount what he said.

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Fact-checking the OP:

 

None of the links in the OP are to Ocasio-Cortez' actual proposal. None of the language quoted in the OP was written by AOC or her co-author, Markey, including the "book report" being derided in this thread.

 

Data For Progress is not affiliated with AOC, and they are not authorized to speak for her. Their work is being falsely proffered as AOC's work in a lot of places - mostly conservative echo chambers, but also by conservatives on forums across the internet.

 

American Action Forum is yet another in a litany of conservative PACs dedicated to the maintenance of the Republican majority in Congress. They donated millions of dollars in 2012 and 2016 to defeating Democrats, and their biggest supporters are Big Pharma and fossil fuel concerns. 

 

The DocumentCloud stuff linked in the Democrat Utopia thread, and again here for good measure, is of dubious origin. It was not authored by AOC, and seems to be largely distributed by conservatives across the internet.

 

So that's, what - four talking points building the premise for the discussion that are incorrect at best?  Nice. :thumbs

 

In case anyone wanted to read the actual proposal, here you go. 

 

https://ocasio-cortez.house.gov/sites/ocasio-cortez.house.gov/files/Resolution on a Green New Deal.pdf

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1 hour ago, knapplc said:

Fact-checking the OP:

 

None of the links in the OP are to Ocasio-Cortez' actual proposal. None of the language quoted in the OP was written by AOC or her co-author, Markey, including the "book report" being derided in this thread.

 

Data For Progress is not affiliated with AOC, and they are not authorized to speak for her. Their work is being falsely proffered as AOC's work in a lot of places - mostly conservative echo chambers, but also by conservatives on forums across the internet.

 

American Action Forum is yet another in a litany of conservative PACs dedicated to the maintenance of the Republican majority in Congress. They donated millions of dollars in 2012 and 2016 to defeating Democrats, and their biggest supporters are Big Pharma and fossil fuel concerns. 

 

The DocumentCloud stuff linked in the Democrat Utopia thread, and again here for good measure, is of dubious origin. It was not authored by AOC, and seems to be largely distributed by conservatives across the internet.

 

So that's, what - four talking points building the premise for the discussion that are incorrect at best?  Nice. :thumbs

 

In case anyone wanted to read the actual proposal, here you go. 

 

https://ocasio-cortez.house.gov/sites/ocasio-cortez.house.gov/files/Resolution on a Green New Deal.pdf

 

Higher paying and more jobs, better infrastructure, clean environment and better quality healthcare? f#&% that bartender!

 

I also didnt see the part where it says give a living wage to people unable to work or unwilling to work like I have seen around the internet.

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9 hours ago, teachercd said:

They do, it is why this is the best country in the world, the most freedom to do what you want,  with the most technology, some of the best universities in the world, the best chance to make something of yourself even if you come from nothing.  People in America have been thinking about their grandkids for 250 years.

 

Not when it comes to climate change and a clean environment they dont. 

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10 minutes ago, Frott Scost said:

 

Not when it comes to climate change and a clean environment they dont. 

Yeah they do...but you are acting like they can do more than they can and that is the problem.  Change is not an explosion it is a slow burn.  What you want to do is blame people that probably don't need to be blamed.  I am sure you drive a car that uses gas...I am sure you leave the lights on at times...I am sure that back in the 80's (if you were alive) you used Aquanet hairspray, I am sure you bought styrofoam, you probably smoked a cig or a cigar, I bet you have tossed things that could be recycled in the trash.  

 

I have no idea if you are a grandma or not but if you are I am willing to be my beach house that you think about your grandkids and their future all the time. 

 

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16 minutes ago, teachercd said:

Yeah they do...but you are acting like they can do more than they can and that is the problem.  Change is not an explosion it is a slow burn.

Change can be fast or slow. The entire US economy changed to war production in the first few months of 1942. It's about whether we have the will to make a change that fast or not.

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9 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

Change can be fast or slow. The entire US economy changed to war production in the first few months of 1942. It's about whether we have the will to make a change that fast or not.

We started the change in 1939 because we started selling s#!t to anyone that would buy it.  By 42 we were already in the war and had about 2.5 years of changing over to war production.  From 39-41 we made a mint.  Also, since FDR forced a lot of stuff on industry it was easier/quicker, you are right, but it was not always totally legit.  Also, it is a lot easier to turn a tuna canning factory into a bullet making factory than it is to get 310 million people to make sure their paper ends up getting recycled and that they give up their cars and walk/bike to work.

 

But regardless, change starts with each person.

 

Do you drive a car?

Do you recycle EVERYTHING that can be recycled?

Do you leave lights on?

Ever smoke?

Ever use aquanet (I did, I had some sweet feathered looks back in the day)

 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, teachercd said:

We started the change in 1939 because we started selling s#!t to anyone that would buy it.  By 42 we were already in the war and had about 2.5 years of changing over to war production.  From 39-41 we made a mint.  Also, since FDR forced a lot of stuff on industry it was easier/quicker, you are right, but it was not always totally legit.  Also, it is a lot easier to turn a tuna canning factory into a bullet making factory than it is to get 310 million people to make sure their paper ends up getting recycled and that they give up their cars and walk/bike to work.

 

But regardless, change starts with each person.

 

Do you drive a car?

Do you recycle EVERYTHING that can be recycled?

Do you leave lights on?

Ever smoke?

Ever use aquanet (I did, I had some sweet feathered looks back in the day)

But it's easier to change a ICE car plant to an electric car plant than convert a tuna canning factory to a bullet making factory.

 

And you might want to read about the war production for WW2:

Quote

War production profoundly changed American industry. Companies already engaged in defense work expanded. Others, like the automobile industry, were transformed completely. In 1941, more than three million cars were manufactured in the United States. Only 139 more were made during the entire war. Instead, Chrysler made fuselages. General Motors made airplane engines, guns, trucks and tanks. Packard made Rolls-Royce engines for the British air force. And at its vast Willow Run plant in Ypsilanti, Michigan, the Ford Motor Company performed something like a miracle 24-hours a day. The average Ford car had some 15,000 parts. The B-24 Liberator long-range bomber had 1,550,000. One came off the line every 63 minutes.

 

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9 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

But it's easier to change a ICE car plant to an electric car plant than convert a tuna canning factory to a bullet making factory.

 

And you might want to read about the war production for WW2:

 

1939 we started selling s#!t to anyone that would buy it.  By 42 we were only selling to certain countries.  And the good old WPB was regulating...sort of.  But comparing us being attacked in WWII and of course everyone getting on the same page (for the most part) to go fight isn't exactly the same as the temp going up.  I get it, I do, but I just think most people do try to help when they can.  

 

Now, back to you...

 

You didn't answer my questions.

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as is typical on HB and across the internet and discourse in general, we completely ignore the actual source in favor of continuing our sport of disagreement which is way more fun.

 

 

Per the actual literature, it all sounds mostly vague and ideological. Which makes it...harmless at worst? This part gives me pause though:

 

to promote justice and equity by stop22 ping current, preventing future, and repairing


23 historic oppression of indigenous peoples, com24 munities of color, migrant communities, .....

 

First off, I guess I'm not seeing the connection to these things and the environment. Second, equity is not the same thing as equality. Maybe they are working with different definitions than I am but equity seems more like pure bona fide socialism where we all make and receive the same. Maybe I'm reading it wrong.

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15 hours ago, teachercd said:

1939 we started selling s#!t to anyone that would buy it.  By 42 we were only selling to certain countries.  And the good old WPB was regulating...sort of.  But comparing us being attacked in WWII and of course everyone getting on the same page (for the most part) to go fight isn't exactly the same as the temp going up.  I get it, I do, but I just think most people do try to help when they can.  

 

Now, back to you...

 

You didn't answer my questions.

I linked to the car manufacturers going from 3+ million cars in 1941 to basically none (139 over the next 3 years). You said we can't change that fast, but I've just shown an example that we did indeed change that fast, so it's not only possible but it's already been done. Now whether we should or will do that for climate change is a different issue, but we can do it if we so choose.

 

As for your questions, they don't really matter for whether we institute a Green New Deal. Plus you're conflating things we do currently with things that we've done in the past, but I'll give you my personal answers:

Do you drive a car? Yes, but I also walk or ride a bike when I can. Plus I try to live close to where I work (I was actually working from home for several years) and generally try to reduce transportation. Although I do fly about once or twice a year when there isn't a practical alternative. And I've worked out that swapping my current Honda Accord for an electric vehicle won't save as much in greenhouse gases as waiting for the Accord to die.

 

Do you recycle EVERYTHING that can be recycled? Yes, but I much prefer to reuse. For example, we get milk in glass containers that can be washed and reused, and we save other glass containers for our own reuse rather than recycling them.

 

Do you leave lights on? No, but it's a constant battle to get the kids to turn them off.

 

The next two questions don't matter as it's not what we've done but what we're doing now and what we'll do in the future that matters. We can't change the past.

Ever smoke?

Ever use aquanet (I did, I had some sweet feathered looks back in the day)

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Couldn't be bothered to take a vote in the Senate on measures to end the shutdown because it would be a "show vote" but........

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Calling for a vote on the GND probably isn't the masterstroke by McConnell that people are thinking it is. The polling for it is pretty positive and even more so when the individual items of the GND are broken out. Obviously it's not going to pass right now but the environment is big issue that's only growing in support.

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13 minutes ago, Whistlebritches said:

Calling for a vote on the GND probably isn't the masterstroke by McConnell that people are thinking it is. The polling for it is pretty positive and even more so when the individual items of the GND are broken out. Obviously it's not going to pass right now but the environment is big issue that's only growing in support.

I agree. Calling for a vote is exactly what I wanted, since it'll force politicians on both sides of the aisle to take a position on the record.

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2 hours ago, Whistlebritches said:

Calling for a vote on the GND probably isn't the masterstroke by McConnell that people are thinking it is. The polling for it is pretty positive and even more so when the individual items of the GND are broken out. Obviously it's not going to pass right now but the environment is big issue that's only growing in support.

 

He thinks it’s safe now because he controls the senate. 

 

What he isnt consudering ring is what public backlash will come from it. 

 

Without knowing more, I would probably vote no also. 

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I remember when the environmental movement was young, and American Business complained that the hippies didn't understand how the world worked, how industries couldn't afford to retrofit their factories and stay competitive, and how the people would never trade cheaper products for cleaner air. They were pretty much wrong about everything.

 

 

LA.jpg

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He's giving her exactly what she wants. I can't believe he'd bring it up for a vote. Doh!

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1 hour ago, BigRedBuster said:

 

He thinks it’s safe now because he controls the senate. 

 

What he isnt consudering ring is what public backlash will come from it. 

 

Without knowing more, I would probably vote no also. 

Something to keep in mind is that the GND is simply a resolution - there's no actual changes in laws or regulations if it gets approved. It's more designed to be a framework that describes the goals so that later legislation can be introduced in a coherent manner. So even if you don't want any of the stuff in the GND to happen, you could still vote for it now and then vote against the specific legislation later.

 

So my previous stance on wanting to get lawmakers on the record may not be meaningful no matter how they vote.

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On 2/8/2019 at 9:15 AM, RedDenver said:

Impossible Beef is quite frankly amazing! Tastes just like a real hamburger. But it only works for ground beef and not other beef like steaks or ribs.

 

Came across an article about Beyond Meat teaming up with Kyrie Irving as a spokesman. I'm kinda interested to try their products:

 

Burgers, brats, Italian sausage, 2 flavors of chicken strips, and 2 flavors of "beef" crumbles.

 

https://www.beyondmeat.com/products

 

That got me searching for info about meatless "steaks" and I found this:

 

Raising the steaks: An Israeli start-up just made the first slaughter-free steak, a lab-grown sirloin

 

 

Quote

Aleph Farms has announced a world’s first: slaughter-free steak. The Israeli start-up’s cellular innovation apparently delivers “the full experience of meat with the appearance, shape and texture of beef cuts.”

 

Quote

The prototype took two-three weeks to make at a cost of $50 per steak, Toubia told Business Insider. As the initial specimen is quite thin, he says the product is at least three or four years away from hitting supermarket shelves and restaurant menus. “It’s close and it tastes good, but we have a bit more work to make sure the taste is 100 per cent similar to conventional meat,” he told The Guardian. “But when you cook it, you really can smell the same smell of meat cooking.”

 

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I don't care if my steak is grown in a lab or comes from an animal. If it tastes good, I'll eat it. Sign me up!

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