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Trump's Fake Wall Emergency


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18 minutes ago, knapplc said:

I can't wait until 2028 when President Ocasio-Cortez declares a national emergency and enacts the Green New Deal and all the conservatives are like, "Yep, that's what the president can do."

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

 

I don't know what's funnier in that scenario--using a national emergency to enact the Green New Deal, or the implication that the GOP will accept it quietly and without carrying on like a bunch of spoiled, petulant children.

And BTW, Eisenhower would be in favor of most of the New Green Deal. Sad how much regression has occurred in that party. 

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38 minutes ago, VectorVictor said:

 

I don't know what's funnier in that scenario--using a national emergency to enact the Green New Deal, or the implication that the GOP will accept it quietly and without carrying on like a bunch of spoiled, petulant children.

And BTW, Eisenhower would be in favor of most of the New Green Deal. Sad how much regression has occurred in that party. 

Not disputing what you are saying about Ike  - but what are you basing it on?     Maybe the fact that he was against the MIC? 

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I’m having trouble agreeing with either side on this wall deal. It’s not an emergency and not one of our most pressing needs but I also think it’s ridiculous that we have such a lack of control of flow across that border.

 

What we need is to reform our whole immigration system to make it easier for deserving people while still having limits and to eliminate the ability of people to simply walk across our border, bypassing immigration requirements. Why couldn’t that be supported by everyone?

 

Our government is a f#cking joke. Neither side wants to actually fix problems. They’re content simply having these far right and far left positions they can use to compete for voters while the actual solutions lie in the huge chasm between.

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8 hours ago, JJ Husker said:

I’m having trouble agreeing with either side on this wall deal. It’s not an emergency and not one of our most pressing needs but I also think it’s ridiculous that we have such a lack of control of flow across that border.

 

What we need is to reform our whole immigration system to make it easier for deserving people while still having limits and to eliminate the ability of people to simply walk across our border, bypassing immigration requirements. Why couldn’t that be supported by everyone?

 

To your second paragraph, I think polls show that this is what people overwhelmingly want. The immigration process is too long and doesn't meet the needs of refugees or us Americans.  

 

On your second paragraph, I don't think our border is as unsecure as the media says. Our border patrol, along with existing barriers, do a good job. It's just that desperate people will find a way in. The best thing, as you've said, is to make the asylum/immigration process easier and quicker.

 

Problem is, that's the opposite of what Trump wants. He wants 1) a monument to himself, and 2) to show that he's hurting people from the s#!thole countries, as he calls them. The cruelty of it all is the point.

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1 hour ago, knapplc said:

 

To your second paragraph, I think polls show that this is what people overwhelmingly want. The immigration process is too long and doesn't meet the needs of refugees or us Americans.  

 

On your second paragraph, I don't think our border is as unsecure as the media says. Our border patrol, along with existing barriers, do a good job. It's just that desperate people will find a way in. The best thing, as you've said, is to make the asylum/immigration process easier and quicker.

 

Problem is, that's the opposite of what Trump wants. He wants 1) a monument to himself, and 2) to show that he's hurting people from the s#!thole countries, as he calls them. The cruelty of it all is the point.

 

We may disagree on the usefulness of a wall. I understand Trump has said many ridiculous, racist, hurtful things about those who would illegally cross our southern border and that makes it almost impossible to support his efforts of building a wall. I mean everything about the guy makes supporting anything he wants to do unpalatable. However, I do think it's ridiculous that we do not have a much better and complete border barrier there already.  IMO it needs to be imposing enough to prevent the majority from even trying. And that's not just strictly to keep them out but also to prevent the journey and attempt which is very dangerous for the elderly, weak, babies etc.

 

But it's not any sort of emergency. If it was me, I'd fix the immigration system first and then actually enforce it and then build a wall at a leisurely, controlled pace. Take the money from the existing defense budget. That's what it is and Lord knows it wouldn't even be a blip on their budget.

 

And this is the reason the two sides can't work together on this. Everything I've said is extremely reasonable and it is ridiculous that we have virtually no control over that border. But there's still people who will say "but Trump" or who will argue against the exaggerated claims of exactly who and what is easily crossing into our country. We've gotten very good at letting a few bad points destroy entirely needed conversations. Anymore the baby always gets thrown out with the bath water.

 

And to be ultra clear, I am opposed to his emergency funding for the wall. It's not any sort of emergency and it will set a very bad precedent for bypassing Congress. To answer your previous point, no I would not be happy if the same method was used to institute the Green new deal. The wall is specific and limited enough that it doesn't greatly bother me but it is an absolutely horrible precedent to allow to occur.

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3 minutes ago, JJ Husker said:

 

We may disagree on the usefulness of a wall. I understand Trump has said many ridiculous, racist, hurtful things about those who would illegally cross our southern border and that makes it almost impossible to support his efforts of building a wall. I mean everything about the guy makes supporting anything he wants to do unpalatable. However, I do think it's ridiculous that we do not have a much better and complete border barrier there already.  IMO it needs to be imposing enough to prevent the majority from even trying. And that's not just strictly to keep them out but also to prevent the journey and attempt which is very dangerous for the elderly, weak, babies etc.

 

But it's not any sort of emergency. If it was me, I'd fix the immigration system first and then actually enforce it and then build a wall at a leisurely, controlled pace. Take the money from the existing defense budget. That's what it is and Lord knows it wouldn't even be a blip on their budget.

 

And this is the reason the two sides can't work together on this. Everything I've said is extremely reasonable and it is ridiculous that we have virtually no control over that border. But there's still people who will say "but Trump" or who will argue against the exaggerated claims of exactly who and what is easily crossing into our country. We've gotten very good at letting a few bad points destroy entirely needed conversations. Anymore the baby always gets thrown out with the bath water.

 

 

What you said at the beginning isn’t why most people don’t support the wall. I would guess it’s not why anyone posting here doesn’t support the wall. I think the reason people here don’t support the wall is because we think it’s a dumb idea for a problem that has becoming less and less every year for a couple decades.

 

And the wall would actually cost a lot more than $5 billion. That’s an extremely low estimate (probably to help Trump sell the idea more easily). There would also be maintenance costs for eternity.

 

As with anything there should be a cost benefit analysis, and I believe there are probably 100s of better ways to spend the $ when it comes to cost/benefit for the U.S. 

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28 minutes ago, StPaulHusker said:

Did I understand correctly that the money is going to come from the military budget should he actually be able to get the money?

That's what I've read.  That is what Bush Sr, and Busy Jr did during the Persian Gulf and immediately after 9/11.  Those would be the closest scenarios to what Trump is claiming and doing.  The other declarations have been about freezing business dealings with terrorist and drug dealer groups...

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12 minutes ago, JJ Husker said:

 

We may disagree on the usefulness of a wall. I understand Trump has said many ridiculous, racist, hurtful things about those who would illegally cross our southern border and that makes it almost impossible to support his efforts of building a wall. I mean everything about the guy makes supporting anything he wants to do unpalatable. However, I do think it's ridiculous that we do not have a much better and complete border barrier there already.  IMO it needs to be imposing enough to prevent the majority from even trying. And that's not just strictly to keep them out but also to prevent the journey and attempt which is very dangerous for the elderly, weak, babies etc.

 

But it's not any sort of emergency. If it was me, I'd fix the immigration system first and then actually enforce it and then build a wall at a leisurely, controlled pace. Take the money from the existing defense budget. That's what it is and Lord knows it wouldn't even be a blip on their budget.

 

And this is the reason the two sides can't work together on this. Everything I've said is extremely reasonable and it is ridiculous that we have virtually no control over that border. But there's still people who will say "but Trump" or who will argue against the exaggerated claims of exactly who and what is easily crossing into our country. We've gotten very good at letting a few bad points destroy entirely needed conversations. Anymore the baby always gets thrown out with the bath water.

 

This is where I strongly agree with a wall.  NPR did a series a while back about the humanitarian need for a wall and if Trump would have been believable for wanting it for these reasons and effectively communicating them,  I think he would have gotten his money.

 

The articles discussed how the "lack of walls" in certain hard to cross areas is strategic.  The hope of border agents is that people will be so desperate for help after crossing these areas they will seek out help and turn themselves in.  Because there is no wall, it HELPS our border patrol; by putting families with elderly people and babies into possibly fatal situations.

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3 minutes ago, Moiraine said:

 

 

What you said at the beginning isn’t why most people don’t support the wall. I would guess it’s not why anyone posting here doesn’t support the wall. I think the reason people here don’t support the wall is because we think it’s a dumb idea for a problem that has becoming less and less every year for a couple decades.

 

And the wall would actually cost a lot more than $5 billion. That’s an extremely low estimate (probably to help Trump sell the idea more easily). There would also be maintenance costs for eternity.

 

As with anything there should be a cost benefit analysis, and I believe there are probably 100s of better ways to spend the $ when it comes to cost/benefit for the U.S. 

 

We may have to agree to disagree on our assessments of how most people feel and their motives for supporting or opposing such a wall. $5B is very low but also an unnoticeable drop in the bucket. I think reasonable people can disagree on the severity of the border problem. I've seen enough in my years to know we'd be much better off with controlled access.

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11 minutes ago, JJ Husker said:

 

We may have to agree to disagree on our assessments of how most people feel and their motives for supporting or opposing such a wall. $5B is very low but also an unnoticeable drop in the bucket. I think reasonable people can disagree on the severity of the border problem. I've seen enough in my years to know we'd be much better off with controlled access.

 

 

One of us thinks every poster here who is against the wall is lying. The other doesn’t.

 

So ya I am going disagree with you that everyone who says it’s a stupid idea is lying and just doesn’t like it because they don’t like Trump.

 

The wall was one of Trump’s first big, idiotic ideas. People weren’t influenced by the other s#!t he had pulled yet when he started talking about it.

 

The wall is an uneccesary cost for something that is improving without it.

 

PH_2018.11.27_Unauthorized-Immigration-E

 

Even if this merely flatlined, the wall would be a dumb idea, because the rate of crossings has reduced drastically. But we had a net decrease in illegal immigrants from 2008 to 2016.

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11 minutes ago, Moiraine said:

The wall is an uneccesary cost for something that is improving without it.

 

This is pretty much the principled case against spending billions of dollars on a wall. We could use those billions on something infinitely more practical and useful, even if they're a tiny fraction of the federal budget.

 

Heck, you could even spend them on other aspects of border control. Alarm systems, drones, personnel, you name it.

 

If the actual data says this is decreasingly a problem, one doesn't have to be OK with it just because the president made it a favorite issue. Nor because it's getting increasing discussion on the news or because news networks have inexplicably been sending reports to film the border itself in hopes of catching people crossing illegally. All of those are bad reasons to shift your opinion on something if hard data doesn't support it.

 

Our asylum system does seem broken with lots of people showing up at ports of entry claiming asylum. The immigration courts are jammed now and they were already overworked. Building a wall isn't going to solve those problems. We need to overhaul the whole system and barriers as a necessary part of border security can and should be a part of that discussion.

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1 minute ago, Clifford Franklin said:

 

This is pretty much the principled case against spending billions of dollars on a wall. We could use those billions on something infinitely more practical and useful, even if they're a tiny fraction of the federal budget.

 

Heck, you could even spend them on other aspects of border control. Alarm systems, drones, personnel, you name it.

 

If the actual data says this is decreasingly a problem, one doesn't have to be OK with it just because the president made it a favorite issue. Nor because it's getting increasing discussion on the news or because news networks have inexplicably been sending reports to film the border itself in hopes of catching people crossing illegally. All of those are bad reasons to shift your opinion on something if hard data doesn't support it.

 

Our asylum system does seem broken with lots of people showing up at ports of entry claiming asylum. The immigration courts are jammed now and they were already overworked. Building a wall isn't going to solve those problems. We need to overhaul the whole system and barriers as a necessary part of border security can and should be a part of that discussion.

 

 

IIRC, the bill that passed increases the # of judges by 75 and increased the budget for immigration courts. 

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