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Trump's Fake Wall Emergency


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12 minutes ago, Moiraine said:

 

 

One of us thinks every poster here who is against the wall is lying. The other doesn’t.

 

So ya I am going disagree with you that everyone who says it’s a stupid idea is lying and just doesn’t like it because they don’t like Trump.

 

The wall was one of Trump’s first big, idiotic ideas. People weren’t influenced by the other s#!t he had pulled yet when he started talking about it.

 

The wall is an uneccesary cost for something that is improving without it.

 

PH_2018.11.27_Unauthorized-Immigration-E

 

Even if this merely flatlined, the wall would be a dumb idea, because the rate of crossings has reduced drastically. But we had a net decrease in illegal immigrants from 2008 to 2016.

 

I don’t think people who are against the wall are all lying....(Sorry but this is the nicest way I can put it) I think many of them are stupid.

 

Sure it’s been improving. That’s a great chart. The line goes up and then about 2007 it starts flat lining and trending down ever so slightly BUT LOOK AT THE NUMBERS that line represents. 10 Million unauthorized crossings per year. 10 Million and that’s not a concern but a measly $5 or $10 billion dollars out of our defense budget is?

 

Ive seen firsthand the impact those numbers have on our schools, healthcare, legal and prison system. Maybe it’s a difference in where we live but it has had a huge impact in Greeley and many other cities across this country. Also approximately 10,000 people since 1994 are known to have died attempting to cross the border. How many more have never been found out? If a few billion dollars helps reduce those unauthorized crossings and senseless desperate deaths further and faster, I can think of few better ways to spend that money.

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Let’s do some simple math. 10 million unauthorized crossings per year, that’s 100 million people over ten years. $10 Billion dollars to build a wall. Cost of wall $100 per unauthorized crossing. Yes, I realize it won’t stop them all but I also realize a properly constructed wall will last much longer than ten years. 

 

The Dept of Homeland Security already spends over $28B per year on border security and immigration control. Maybe that number could be reduced if they actually had a barrier aiding their efforts.

 

Like I said originally, fixing our immigration system is more important but I think a major part of that issue is regaining control of our border. 10 million unauthorized crossings per year is just a bad frikken joke.

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44 minutes ago, JJ Husker said:

 

I don’t think people who are against the wall are all lying....(Sorry but this is the nicest way I can put it) I think many of them are stupid.

 

Sure it’s been improving. That’s a great chart. The line goes up and then about 2007 it starts flat lining and trending down ever so slightly BUT LOOK AT THE NUMBERS that line represents. 10 Million unauthorized crossings per year. 10 Million and that’s not a concern but a measly $5 or $10 billion dollars out of our defense budget is?

 

Ive seen firsthand the impact those numbers have on our schools, healthcare, legal and prison system. Maybe it’s a difference in where we live but it has had a huge impact in Greeley and many other cities across this country. Also approximately 10,000 people since 1994 are known to have died attempting to cross the border. How many more have never been found out? If a few billion dollars helps reduce those unauthorized crossings and senseless desperate deaths further and faster, I can think of few better ways to spend that money.

 

It doesn't matter what you've seen firsthand, that's anecdotes, not data. We're talking about spending federal government $. It needs to be shown have a better cost/benefit other things the $ can be spent on. It might be a huge problem in small pockets of the U.S., but that isn't a reason to fix it over other problems that have a better cost/benefit.

 

Also, there are a hell of a lot better ways to spend a lot of money than on 10,000 deaths in 22 years. That's 455 per year, and why do you think they were willing to attempt a crossing? Probably because their lives were at stake.

 

And you read the chart wrong. It's the illegal immigrant total. And you call it slight and then tell me to look at the numbers. There were 1.5 million less illegal immigrants in 2016 than there were in 2007. That's a pretty big drop. More are leaving than entering, and it's happening without the stupid idea that is the wall.

 

 

17 minutes ago, JJ Husker said:

10 million unauthorized crossings per year

 

Read the chart title.

 

100 million would be ~33% of the U.S. population. Illegal immigrants make up 3% of the population. It's the total illegal immigrants in the U.S.

 

 

 

Apprehensions-graph-ENG-1024x576.gif

 

 

And they've increased the # of border agents so I doubt the rate of slipping past them uncaught has increased in the time frame:

 

130626bp.png

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5 minutes ago, JJ Husker said:

Let’s do some simple math. 10 million unauthorized crossings per year, that’s 100 million people over ten years. $10 Billion dollars to build a wall. Cost of wall $100 per unauthorized crossing. Yes, I realize it won’t stop them all but I also realize a properly constructed wall will last much longer than ten years. 

 

The Dept of Homeland Security already spends over $28B per year on border security and immigration control. Maybe that number could be reduced if they actually had a barrier aiding their efforts. 

 

Like I said originally, fixing our immigration system is more important but I think a major part of that issue is regaining control of our border. 10 million unauthorized crossings per year is just a bad frikken joke.

 

Remember, though, that the majority of those 10 millions didn't cross the southern border illegally.

 

Recent report pegs just 38% of new illegal immigrants as illegally coming up from Mexico. 62% got a work visa, likely flew to the U.S. and never left when it expired.

 

They note it's been that way for the past seven years.

 

I don't disagree with your point, but this strengthens the case for comprehensive reform, because a wall won't do anything to that 62%. POTUS certainly shouldn't be allowed an end-around to bypass Congress on this.

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2 minutes ago, Moiraine said:

 

 

It doesn't matter what you've seen firsthand, that's anecdotes, not data.

 

And you read the chart wrong. It's the illegal immigrant total. And you call it slight and then tell me to look at the numbers. There were 1.5 million less illegal immigrants in 2016 than there were in 2007. That's a pretty big drop. More are leaving than entering, and it's happening without the stupid idea that is the wall.

 

 

 

Read the chart title.

 

The chart says “Unauthorized immigration total”. Okay, that doesn’t necessarily mean all are southern border crossings. Where do you think those unauthorized immigration numbers are coming from? Canada? By boat? I would guess the only other way in excess of maybe 1000 might be via Florida.

 

And what I’ve seen firsthand certainly does matter as far as opinion and preferences on the subject. That is what we were both talking about, people’s motives for supporting or opposing the wall. You said those opposing weren’t lying about their reasons. Am I to assume that all who oppose looked at all the same info and charts you have and come to the same misguided conclusion that 10 million unauthorized immigration total per year is acceptable as long as some line on a chart is tilted about 4 degrees below horizontal? And I don’t understand at all what net immigration has to do with regaining control of a border. I doubt we’ll use a wall to prevent people from leaving the country. 

 

I think my math has shown that the relatively insignificant cost of a barrier is actually a pretty reasonable use of funds.

Im guessing we disagree...

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8 minutes ago, Clifford Franklin said:

No doubt just grabbing some quick chow before he goes back to the War Room to hunker down and navigate us out of this existential national crisis we find ourselves in.

 

 

I was wondering what Trump was having for breakfast.

 

......question answered.

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10 minutes ago, Clifford Franklin said:

No doubt just grabbing some quick chow before he goes back to the War Room to hunker down and navigate us out of this existential national crisis we find ourselves in.

 

 

It's research!  He's going to spend his day in the bunkers to see what immigrants endure crossing the deserts of Arizona!

 

Ha!  Just noticed the artwork behind the omelette bar......How does not everyone see this man for the douche he is????

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13 hours ago, JJ Husker said:

The chart says “Unauthorized immigration total”. Okay, that doesn’t necessarily mean all are southern border crossings. Where do you think those unauthorized immigration numbers are coming from? Canada? By boat? I would guess the only other way in excess of maybe 1000 might be via Florida.

 

 

Dude, I was trying to be polite about this...

 

It's the TOTAL # of unauthorized immigrants in the U.S. Not crossings. If the # decreases it means more are leaving/dying than are entering the country. Maybe the title isn't clear enough but 10 million per year is an insane #. Illegals would outnumber citizens by 2030 which isn't even close to being the case. They're less than 5% of the population. I added a chart showing the # of border apprehensions by year and the # of border patrol agents per year. The # entering is in the hundred thousands per year right now. The apprehensions are decreasing while the # of agents is increasing. That means less are attempting to enter.

 

 

Also, you are grossly mistaken on what % of illegal immigrants are coming through Mexico.

 

Quote

About 700,000 travelers to the United States overstayed their visas in fiscal 2017, the most recent year for which the Department of Homeland Security has published figures. DHS estimated that, as of Sept. 30, 2017, the end of that fiscal year, more than 600,000 of those travelers were still in the U.S.

 

During that same year, there were just 300,000 apprehensions along the Southern border, according to Customs and Border Protection — the lowest number since 1971.

 

https://www.npr.org/2019/01/10/683662691/where-does-illegal-immigration-mostly-occur-heres-what-the-data-tell-us

 

So, we've got the illegal immigrant population decreasing since 2010, and the share of illegal immigrants coming over our border illegally decreasing for years.

 

These are apprehensions, so I don't agree with one site that said overstays are 66% (600k/900k), but we have less apprehensions and more border patrol agents. So, by the above data, it's clear the share has decreased significantly.

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15 minutes ago, Clifford Franklin said:

 

Remember, though, that the majority of those 10 millions didn't cross the southern border illegally.

 

Recent report pegs just 38% of new illegal immigrants as illegally coming up from Mexico. 62% got a work visa, likely flew to the U.S. and never left when it expired.

 

They note it's been that way for the past seven years.

 

I don't disagree with your point, but this strengthens the case for comprehensive reform, because a wall won't do anything to that 62%. POTUS certainly shouldn't be allowed an end-around to bypass Congress on this.

 

Exactly that is why the system needs reformed. I just don’t see how that reform can’t include reasonable methods of border control. 3.8 million per year is still a lot of unchecked people. And really the thing that bothers me most about it is the unfairness to those who immigrate legally, following the rules. The unauthorized simply take and do what they want. How would any of us feel if were standing in line to purchase tickets and a constant stream of people just kept butting in ahead of us. Sure many of them may be desperate and have good reasons but it’s still wrong. It’s why many, me included, call them what they are, illegal immigrants. It’s not a race or ethnicity thing. It’s directly a result of them ignoring the law and proper procedure. Of the people I know, the harshest words for them are used by other Hispanics who immigrated legally or have been here for generations.

 

And I agree, dipsh#t should not be allowed to build a wall this way. It’s not any kind of emergency but I also don’t think it’s a terrible idea.

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9 minutes ago, JJ Husker said:

Exactly that is why the system needs reformed. I just don’t see how that reform can’t include reasonable methods of border control. 3.8 million per year is still a lot of unchecked people.

 

 

Do you have me on ignore or something? I've explained 3 times now that there are not 10 million crossings by year. That's the total U.S. population of illegal immigrants. The population of people in the U.S. does not even grow by 3 million per year.

 

 

0.38 * 10,000,000 is indeed 3,800,000 but you've misunderstood this number from the beginning.

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29 minutes ago, Moiraine said:

 

 

Dude, I was trying to be polite about this...

 

It's the TOTAL # of unauthorized immigrants in the U.S. Not crossings. If the # decreases it means more are leaving/dying than are entering the country. Maybe the title isn't clear enough but 10 million per year is an insane #. Illegals would outnumber citizens by 2030 which isn't even close to being the case. They're less than 5% of the population. I added a chart showing the # of border apprehensions by year and the # of border patrol agents per year. The # entering is in the hundred thousands per year right now. The apprehensions are decreasing while the # of agents is increasing. That means less are attempting to enter.

 

 

Also, you are grossly mistaken on what % of illegal immigrants are coming through Mexico.

 

 

https://www.npr.org/2019/01/10/683662691/where-does-illegal-immigration-mostly-occur-heres-what-the-data-tell-us

 

So, we've got the illegal immigrant population decreasing since 2010, and the share of illegal immigrants coming over our border illegally decreasing for years.

 

These are apprehensions, so I don't agree with one sight that said overstays are 66% (600k/900k), but we have less apprehensions and more border patrol agents. So, by the above data, it's clear the share has decreased significantly.

 Okay, I’m up to speed now. I thought those data points were yearly numbers of new unauthorized immigrants. I should have realized that was a ridiculously high number. I apologize. But, anecdotally, it sometimes seems as if it really is that bad around here.

 

BTW, you don’t have to be polite to me. If you would’ve been rude (which you really weren’t) sooner I may have understood faster. Just don’t call me dude :lol:

 

Now I’ve got to recalculate all my math to determine if I still think a wall is a good use of funds. Thanks for giving me homework :angry:

 

To further explain, when you first said the chart was “total unauthorized immigration”, I thought you were specifying it included all forms of unauthorized entry and not the total balance in country.

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3 minutes ago, JJ Husker said:

 Okay, I’m up to speed now. I thought those data points were yearly numbers of new unauthorized immigrants. I should have realized that was a ridiculously high number. I apologize. But, anecdotally, it sometimes seems as if it really is that bad around here.

 

BTW, you don’t have to be polite to me. If you would’ve been rude (which you really weren’t) sooner I may have understood faster. Just don’t call me dude :lol:

 

Now I’ve got to recalculate all my math to determine if I still think a wall is a good use of funds. Thanks for giving me homework :angry:

 

 

I had to say "dude" 'cause I was frustrated, heh.

Just make sure you calculate it to be about $20 billion with annual costs.

And yes I kind of understand that part. I know people from Schuyler who felt their town was taken over. The funny thing is when I went to the Rose Bowl I sat with a Hispanic teenage girl on the bus to the stadium who said she loved the Cornhuskers and her grandparents lived in Schuyler and she loved it there.

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24 minutes ago, Moiraine said:

 

 

I had to say "dude" 'cause I was frustrated, heh.

Just make sure you calculate it to be about $20 billion with annual costs.

And yes I kind of understand that part. I know people from Schuyler who felt their town was taken over. The funny thing is when I went to the Rose Bowl I sat with a Hispanic teenage girl on the bus to the stadium who said she loved the Cornhuskers and her grandparents lived in Schuyler and she loved it there.

 

As a little background on me, we open enrolled our kids in the high school with the highest percentage of Hispanics across town. We could’ve gone to the much newer school with way more white kids that was way closer to our home. We went across town because we felt that school offered the best teachers and academics in town, and it does/did. But I was shocked with the detrimental impact large numbers of illegal and new immigrants, lack of language skills and different culture can have on education. I’m not saying it’s all bad, some of it was good to be exposed to but it severely complicates the education process and diverts very large amounts of funds to tertiary efforts. And to be completely transparent, for middle school we open enrolled our 2nd child out of district, literally in another town to get away from what we experienced with our 1st kid in middle school. There is not a middle school in town that is not just buried in the crap caused by the immigration problem. It’s apparent at our hospital. It’s apparent in our local jail population. It’s apparent in what our police spend all their time on. That may all be anecdotal but it is reality here.

 

The contributing culprit is a major industry represented in this town, meat packing (like Schuyler) It attracts new immigrants and illegal immigrants. I don’t think Fort Collins a mere 20 miles away has near if any of the same issues.

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