Defensive Play

[Husker in WI]

3 minutes ago, CalhounHusker said:

I understand what man coverage is, but when they throw a total of 13 passes, and finish the game with 322 yards, it’s time to play the run.

 

Would they have helped? Feels like a lot (not all) of the big runs were cutbacks to the middle, where the CBs aren't making the play anyway. I don't think their TE got completely lost with no defender within 30 yards because we were respecting the pass. I don't really have a problem with your outside guys locking up 1 on 1 and playing 9 v 9 in the middle - we start telling them to aggressively attack the run and Minny probably runs for 200 and throws for 250. They were a wide open drop away from throwing for ~180 just on those 13 attempts.

[Undone]

 

But we're not in "good shape so far." Minnesota's alignment here is brilliant, and it's a great example of Chinander getting outwitted to a 'T.' They want our best tackler (JoJo) to get spread out wide to be prepared for a passing play.

 

If you're actually in a 'called run fit' play, why have Tannor set the edge? He's taking on a guy that probably weighs 60+ pounds more than he does. Slide him back to roughly where Barry is and bring Barry back to align over their center and tell them both stand their f****** ground.

 

To put it a different way, so many people on this forum say "Well Wisconsin plays a lot of 3-4 so the 3-4 is just fine." Fair enough. Are they fielding linebackers that are measurably more talented than ours, as measured by high school rankings? I doubt it. I'll see if I can look up those stats.

I think are linebackers aren't being coached well right now.

[Nebfanatic]

11 minutes ago, Undone said:

 

But we're not in "good shape so far." Minnesota's alignment here is brilliant, and it's a great example of Chinander getting outwitted to a 'T.'

 

 

Why is the alignment by minnesota so brilliant here? Pretty standard set 

[Undone]

I looked up the recruiting profiles on 24/7 Sports for Wisconsin's starting four linebackers:

 

-Zack Baun, OLB: 6'3, Redshirt Senior --> 3*, .84

-Chris Orr, ILB: 6'0, Redshirt Senior --> 3* .82

-Jack Sanborn, ILB: 6'2, Sophomore --> 4*, .89

-Noah Burks, OLB: 6'3, Junior --> 3*, .87

 

This is not an incredibly talented group of guys. They are 75% upperclassmen...but they're not a very talented group. And in addition, they don't have really tall outside guys; they don't exceed 6'3. So there's no argument that they're these big monster hybrid body types that are just freaks of nature.

 

They're well-coached and well-disciplined. What other explanation is there? 

 

[Husker in WI]

14 minutes ago, Undone said:

If you're actually in a 'called run fit' play, why have Tannor set the edge? He's taking on a guy that probably weighs 60+ pounds more than he does. Slide him back to roughly where Barry is and bring Barry back to align over their center and tell them both stand their f****** ground.

 

I think that's just a limitation of personnel, and I don't think it causes a problem on this play. Actually doesn't even look like Tannor is in on this play. And telling them to stand their ground feels like it's easier said than done - what about the alignment you suggested changes their weight disadvantage?

 

15 minutes ago, Undone said:

I think are linebackers aren't being coached well right now.

 

In the end it's on the coaches, sure. But I have a hard time believing they're being coached to miss their fits. If it's lack of preparation that's on the coaches, but I don't think that's what is happening. And it feels like you're just calling a scheme you disagree with "bad coaching." Which may be true, but it's subjective.

[Ziebol]

1 minute ago, Husker in WI said:

In the end it's on the coaches, sure. But I have a hard time believing they're being coached to miss their fits. If it's lack of preparation that's on the coaches, but I don't think that's what is happening. And it feels like you're just calling a scheme you disagree with "bad coaching." Which may be true, but it's subjective.

LB has remained the weakest link of this defense for two years. Alex Davis needs to not see the field. Ferguson has been checked out since last year. JoJo is getting schemed against now so Tannor needs to step up because every team just got a blueprint on how to neutralize our DL.

[Undone]

4 minutes ago, Husker in WI said:

I think that's just a limitation of personnel

 

Explain.

[Husker in WI]

Just now, Undone said:

 

Explain.

 

That was in response to why Tannor was setting the edge - who else do we have to do that? Alex Davis sure, I think that's actually who it is in the screenshot. But everyone else at OLB is about as small as Tannor. I guess Garrett Nelson is bigger and getting some playing time, but our other OLBs with the size they want aren't ready yet.

[Undone]

9 minutes ago, Husker in WI said:

But I have a hard time believing they're being coached to miss their fits.

 

Not only are they not being aligned to defend the run, they're over-pursuing against the run.

 

Both of those things fall back on the coaches to correct. And when you look at the data on Wisconsin's linebacker recruits that I posted a few posts up I think it's time for everyone here to stop saying that we aren't talented enough to play decent football in this conference with who we have on the roster.

 

Alex Davis was a very low-ranking 3*. I'll definitely concede that. 

 

2 minutes ago, Husker in WI said:

 

That was in response to why Tannor was setting the edge - who else do we have to do that? Alex Davis sure, I think that's actually who it is in the screenshot. But everyone else at OLB is about as small as Tannor.

 

Look at the heights of the Wisconsin players I posted above and then tell me that the excuse is that Tannor isn't big enough.

[Husker in WI]

Just now, Undone said:

 

Not only are they not being aligned to defend the run, they're over-pursuing against the run.

 

Both of those things fall back on the coaches to correct. And when you look at the data on Wisconsin's linebacker recruits that I posted a few posts up I think it's time for everyone here to stop saying that we aren't talented enough to play decent football in this conference with who we have on the roster.

 

Alex Davis was a very low-ranking 3*. I'll definitely concede that. 

 

Got it, think I misunderstood what you were arguing anyway. Yeah, I don't think talent is the reason we gave up 300 rushing yards to Minnesota.

 

You can argue execution vs. coaching, and at some point execution is on the coaches. I'm still giving them a little bit of a pass because I think Barry and Honas are who they are, and Miller still looks like he's learning LB. I assume they are trying to coach the over-pursuit out of them, I'm just not holding my breath it'll happen after a year and a half of it. If it continues to be a problem with the next round of LBs, I'll have some coaching concerns.

[Undone]

1 minute ago, Husker in WI said:

I assume they are trying to coach the over-pursuit out of them, I'm just not holding my breath it'll happen after a year and a half of it. If it continues to be a problem with the next round of LBs, I'll have some coaching concerns.

 

I totally agree, and that is a very reasoned take and I'm right there with you.

 

I've watched a ton of B1G football this season. I'm not an expert, but I've watched a lot of Big 10 football. And the biggest thing I notice is that Iowa, Wisconsin, & Northwestern go into most plays depending on their secondary to cover pass plays and stop the run by keeping their LBs patient to watch where the play develops to. Northwestern's tape against Wisconsin was awesome in this regard. 

 

Chinander might be trying to do too much. I don't know for sure. But if Iowa does to us what Minnesota did I'll be pretty fed up with our defensive coaching staff's ability to prepare its team to play against the run in this conference. 

[Undone]

Just for the hell of it, I looked up Wisconsin's starting three defensive linemen:

 

-Defensive End, Isaiahh Loudermilk: 6'6, Redshirt Sophomore --> 3*, .85

-Nose Tackle, Bryson Williams (from my alma mater...Lincoln Southeast...ouch!!): Sophomore --> 3*, .85

-Defensive End, Garrett Rand: 6'1, Junior --> 4*, .92

 

Two 3*s and a 4*. World beater recruits? Nope. And two of them are sophomores, to boot.

[Nebfanatic]

12 minutes ago, Undone said:

 

And when you look at the data on Wisconsin's linebacker recruits that I posted a few posts up I think it's time for everyone here to stop saying that we aren't talented enough to play decent football in this conference with who we have on the roster.

This is a flawed argument to me. Wisconsin has had a system in place for years. Those low star recruits produce because the coaches know what they are looking for and know how to translate that into their scheme. We have brought in some of these players ourselves (Nelson, Graham). Just because our current LB corps had the stars out of high school doesn't mean that translates directly to what the staff wants to do. They may not have the right mental attitude at this point. We also can't discount the fact some of these guys have had 3 different defensive coordinators though their careers all telling them and teaching them different things. I'd bet our LB corps would look alot better if they had Chinander coaching them from day 1. There would be no old habits to break or anything like that. 

[Undone]

7 minutes ago, Nebfanatic said:

We also can't discount the fact some of these guys have had 3 different defensive coordinators though their careers all telling them and teaching them different things. I'd bet our LB corps would look alot better if they had Chinander coaching them from day 1. There would be no old habits to break or anything like that.

 

So we've switched from last year's excuse that our defense is talentless.

 

This year's excuse is that a year and a half isn't enough time under Chinander's tutelage to coach two Frost recruits (Tannor & Miller) and two Riley recruits (Davis & Barry) into a decent squad.

 

Tell me the minimum number of seasons that a Frost recruit has under Chinander's coaching before this excuse runs out. I'm not being sarcastic - please put a number on it by your own standards.

 

I personally can force myself to put a salve on my psyche and tell myself that the number of seasons is "two." Meaning that next year, I expect to field a decent linebacker corps. I don't give a flying f*** that JoJo was a Riley recruit; he's a decent player. He'll be a senior, and Miller/Tannor will be juniors. So sure, maybe Henrich is out there as a true freshman and obviously you'll have to give him quite a bit of leeway there...but 3/4 of the squad will be upperclassmen.

No excuses of any kind next year in my opinion.

[Nebfanatic]

1 minute ago, Undone said:

 

So we've switched from last year's excuse that our defense is talentless.

 

This year's excuse is that a year and a half isn't enough time under Chinander's tutelage to coach two Frost recruits (Tannor & Miller) and two Riley recruits (Davis & Barry) into a decent squad.

 

Tell me the minimum number of seasons that a Frost recruit has under Chinander's coaching before this excuse runs out. I'm not being sarcastic - please put a number on it by your own standards.

I'm just saying, comparing our linebackers to Wisconsins coming out of high school isn't a fair comparison when they have a system in place that has been spitting out all conference backers for years. Do we have such a track record? Why blame Chinander when our backers have never been great in the BIG? The fact that our LB corps is made up of more Frost guys than Riley guys should tell you there is an issue. We should have more upperclassman backers than 2(Honas doesn't count) I'd like to see this team completely full of Frost recruits honestly. Its hard to judge the coaching job Chinander is doing with the many holes left by attrition of Riley recruits.