Reparations, Racism & Building a better Society

[B.B. Hemingway]

1 minute ago, Nebfanatic said:

 

What about people who go to prison who didn't commit a crime but were unjustly imprisoned? Generations of fathers being wrongfully taken from their families

 

And what percentage of broken black families in 2019 do you think these things are responsible for?

[Landlord]

I would actually like the conversation to get back to the ideas about reparations and how they could theoretically work. This pissing contest of, "Is racism still around and to what degrees does it negatively effect people" has been hashed out thousands of times on this website alone and is frankly pretty boring. Nobody is going to actually make any effort to listen to anybody else on that topic.

 

 

But, continuing the reparations conversation, I think I've shown at least a cursory look into how just handing people, especially poor and uneducated people, a check with a bunch of money is a pretty bad idea. But there's a lot of ideas about government handouts and assistance that could come in various ways. Some I think are no brainers and are drastically needed, but generally are needed across the spectrum of poor and nothing that should be exclusively granted to black people or withheld from any other race of people. 

 

Others I'm very wary of. So many good ideas, and lately what seems like so many popular and feel good sound bytes from the progressive left, seem so positive and well intentioned but can end up being more harmful than helpful. Lots of very highly educated people, including plenty of african american economists and professors, are convinced that the introduction of the welfare state has been a crippling blow to black progress, and played a role in things like the percentage of single mother households going from less than 20% in the 60s up to 73% present. A lot of people want to look at affirmative action as the main boondoggle for the creation of the white middle class, but there are tons of stats of dramatic and palpable progress by blacks even before the civil rights act and era.

 

I don't hold any of these sorts of claims as gospel truth, but we should be very seriously taking a look at any legitimacy they might offer when we're trying to figure out such an important decision.

[teachercd]

Can someone point me to my 650,000 in wealth I am supposed to have?  

 

I must have misplaced it.

[NM11046]

11 hours ago, B.B. Hemingway said:

 

If you think slavery is the only reason for that wealth divide, we may be on the beach together....

 

Also, all those numbers seem astronomically high....

You obviously didn't read my post or the links.

[NM11046]

3 hours ago, Landlord said:

I would actually like the conversation to get back to the ideas about reparations and how they could theoretically work. This pissing contest of, "Is racism still around and to what degrees does it negatively effect people" has been hashed out thousands of times on this website alone and is frankly pretty boring. Nobody is going to actually make any effort to listen to anybody else on that topic.

 

 

But, continuing the reparations conversation, I think I've shown at least a cursory look into how just handing people, especially poor and uneducated people, a check with a bunch of money is a pretty bad idea. But there's a lot of ideas about government handouts and assistance that could come in various ways. Some I think are no brainers and are drastically needed, but generally are needed across the spectrum of poor and nothing that should be exclusively granted to black people or withheld from any other race of people. 

 

Others I'm very wary of. So many good ideas, and lately what seems like so many popular and feel good sound bytes from the progressive left, seem so positive and well intentioned but can end up being more harmful than helpful. Lots of very highly educated people, including plenty of african american economists and professors, are convinced that the introduction of the welfare state has been a crippling blow to black progress, and played a role in things like the percentage of single mother households going from less than 20% in the 60s up to 73% present. A lot of people want to look at affirmative action as the main boondoggle for the creation of the white middle class, but there are tons of stats of dramatic and palpable progress by blacks even before the civil rights act and era.

 

I don't hold any of these sorts of claims as gospel truth, but we should be very seriously taking a look at any legitimacy they might offer when we're trying to figure out such an important decision.

I don't think the pissing contest was relative to "is discrimination still around", indeed that's a convo that's ongoing in many threads, but the comments that there are no reparations needed because it's all even steven now and today's minorities have what they should and are not behind white folks.  Any of my contributions were sharing info and data showing how the impacts of the harm done in the past are still being felt today.

 

But you're right, those who think we're all set don't seem open to even reading about or discussing the whys'.

 

• I think the first step needs to be prison reform, and we've actually made some bipartisan progress in this regard in the last couple years at a national level.  I know California is working through pardons for non violent criminals and those directly impacted by the asinine "three strikes" law - but what are other, perhaps less liberal states doing?

 

Quote

The drop has been concentrated in 10 states — California, Connecticut, Illinois, Indiana, Mississippi, New Hampshire, New Jersey, Ohio, South Carolina and Vermont — according to the Vera Institute for Justice, a nonprofit criminal justice research group.

 

The most notable changes were in California, where the government responded to a 2011 Supreme Court order to fix its overcrowded state prisons by shifting inmates to county supervision. Often, that meant parole rather than jail.

In addition, voters have approved two ballot measures since 2014 that reduced incarceration. Proposition 47 changed drug and most theft convictions from felonies into misdemeanors, and Proposition 57 gave nonviolent criminals better chances for early release.

https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-criminal-justice-reform-20181230-story.html

 

• In addition, legalizing marijuana and making drug offenses (depending on the drug) misdemeanors vs. felonies would lesson prison terms assigned in all states. 
• People who have served their time should have the right to vote. 
• Depending on the severity of the crime, a person's records should be sealed for a certain amount of years afterward, allowing the individual to obtain work and fair compensation.

 

Very interesting data here, breakdowns by state, crime, race, sentence etc.

https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/top-trends-state-criminal-justice-reform-2018/

 

[Landlord]

I agree that prison reform is 100% the biggest thing that needs to be figured out immediately. Followed by education reform, welfare reform, getting rid of gerrymandering and allowing ex cons to vote. Those few things would go an infinitely long ways. 

[TGHusker]

With the new administration, there is now some movement on this issue based on the Axios article below.   The last post in this thread was from Sept 2019 - way before covid and way before George Floyd & other similar situations were brought to light and also before all of the unrest of 2020 that followed.  

 

Have your attitudes changed since then regarding reparations?

 

https://www.axios.com/biden-cedric-richmond-reparations-f4984eab-18fd-4f4b-ad14-4cd10c54a18a.html

 

Quote

 

White House senior adviser Cedric Richmond told "Axios on HBO" that it's "doable" for President Biden to make first-term progress on breaking down barriers for people of color, while Congress studies reparations for slavery.

Why it matters: Biden said on the campaign trail that he supports creation of a commission to study and develop proposals for reparations — direct payments for African-Americans.

A House panel heard testimony on the legislation last week.

• "I think that [creation of a commission] will pass," Richmond said.

What they're saying: Richmond said that while the timeline for the commission isn't knowable, "if you start talking about free college tuition to [Historically Black Colleges and Universities] and you start talking about free community college in Title I and all of those things, I think that you are well on your way."

• "We have to start breaking down systemic racism and barriers that have held people of color back and especially African-Americans," he said. "[W]e have to do stuff now."

What's next: Richmond pointed to a Biden executive action "breaking down barriers in housing, making sure that African-Americans can pass down wealth through homeownership, that their homes are not valued less than homes in different communities just because of the neighborhood it's in."

• "We don't want to wait on a study," he said. "We're going to start acting now."

 

•  

[BigRedBuster]

1 hour ago, TGHusker said:

Have your attitudes changed since then regarding reparations?

No, I still just don't see how they can happen and be appropriate for everyone involved.

[TGHusker]

1 hour ago, BigRedBuster said:

No, I still just don't see how they can happen and be appropriate for everyone involved.

Yes, I agree.  I don't see how it brings true justice and equity to all parties.  If you pay reparations to one class of people, others will rise up and say where is mine.

We are talking about using tax dollars from all races to pay for this.   There got to be better ways than this to correct the issues of racial injustice.

[Ulty]

5 minutes ago, TGHusker said:

If you pay reparations to one class of people, others will rise up and say where is mine.

That is one of the things that makes this conversation very difficult. In addition to slavery, our country has been pretty Sh!tty to other minority groups that have not recovered: namely our treatment of Native Americans. But there are others as well.

 

I support the idea of reparations, and I also support affirmative action and anything else that furthers equity and equality. However, what is the best way to do make amends for the parts of our history we are not so proud of? 

[Guy Chamberlin]

Opposing reparations might seem selfish and racist. Yet writing a check to salve your guilt seems like another patronizing and ultimately shallow gesture of liberalism. 

 

And are we talking about grievances from systemic inequity? Cause that's a looooooooooong list. Slavery wins priority hands down. Unless you stop to consider Native-American genocide. Generations of gays might tell you they were more likely to be shunned, fired, beaten, and killed without consequence than Black Americans. 

 

And what would be the price of justice anyway? Who comes up with that incredibly controversial figure, and how exactly does that change either the past or the future? 

 

It's a third rail issue with a lot of counter-productive baggage attached.

 

When Jeff Bezos' ex-wife made huge unrestricted donations directly to a few Historically Black Colleges, that was more genuine remediation than putting the pro-rated cash in millions of hands. If Republican redistricting and voter suppression are simultaneously marginalizing the Black vote, reparations hardly matter. We've got to make investments in all kinds of underserved sectors of America -- and promote them as investments, not handouts -- because they will have a significant positive return on the economy as well as the social fabric, a fact that gets lost in the Maker/Taker narrative horses#!tt. 

[B.B. Hemingway]

Slavery was not unique to the United States. As unethical as it was, it was a worldwide issue. Reparations are grabs for political gains by politicians, and a money grab by citizens looking for a payday. There is no justice to found for slavery. All involved are long gone. 

 

[Scarlet]

How much progress will be made when the discussion of reperations become one of the reagents for a Trumpist landslide in 2024?  Because politically it's a losing stance.   Combine it with open borders and the Dems will lose the center and independents.  Sometimes you just have to be pragmatic.

[Archy1221]

1) How would it be possible to define who gets reparations?  What percent of slave ancestry qualifies?  Is it a sliding scale?  If you have white ancestry also do you forfeit the reparations since you are partially privileged?

If the African tribe you belonged to prior to being forcefully brought over to America participated in the slave trade, or had slaves ever, do you need to directly send your reparations over to Africa to pay that debt?

 

2) Do families of soldiers who died in Civil War fighting to free slaves get reparations? They paid the ultimate sacrifice.  Or relief from their tax money being used for reparations? 
 

3). Someone  brought American Indians up.  Where do they fit in?  Asian railroad labor workers?  Irish when they came over we’re treated horribly.  Do they count for some?  
4) Why should a family that didn’t come to America until the 1900’s have to pay reparations?   They didn’t participate in slavery.  Should generational families that never owned slaves be responsible to pay reparations with their tax money?  
 

To me, reparations from a direct payment standpoint is just silly.  Incentivizing Economic investment opportunities in minority communities would be a way to get the that economic engine going.  

[TGHusker]

49 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

When Jeff Bezos' ex-wife made huge unrestricted donations directly to a few Historically Black Colleges, that was more genuine remediation than putting the pro-rated cash in millions of hands. If Republican redistricting and voter suppression are simultaneously marginalizing the Black vote, reparations hardly matter. We've got to make investments in all kinds of underserved sectors of America -- and promote them as investments, not handouts -- because they will have a significant positive return on the economy as well as the social fabric, a fact that gets lost in the Maker/Taker narrative horses#!tt. 

Well stated.