Reparations, Racism & Building a better Society

[Ulty]

I'm not sure how reparations would/could work. I don't really know what a cash settlement would accomplish. The impact upon minority populations has been more than just not having enough money. There has been generations of marginalization that have left entire populations without equity and equality.

 

A cash payment to a descendant of slaves is not going to give repair the years of suffering due to indentured servitude, disenfranchisement, segregation, Jim Crow, etc. It's unfeasible to simply hand award 40 acres and a mule now to every family whose ancestors were enslaved.

 

A cash payment to a Native American family is not going to erase their eviction from their native lands, the Trail of Tears, smallpox infected blankets, Wounded Knee, and general mass genocide. We can't simply return all of the settled land back to the indigenous populations.

 

To make things better, there has to at least be an acknowledgement of how we got to this point in our country, and the fact that the USA rose to prominence and unprecedented success as a nation at the horrific expense of exploited populations. And we need to realize how these events then disadvantaged these populations for generations to come.

 

We need more effective programs to lift up marginalized populations. Education, job training, housing, civil rights protections, affirmative action (which does not mean quotas, by the way). But a culture of inclusivity is also needed. We as a society need to recognize the faults of our past and embrace the need for change. 

 

One example, Miami University in Ohio is named after the Miyaamia tribe which was native to the area long ago. That tribe was relocated to Oklahoma and largely decimated. Their native language was nearly lost and forgotten. Over the past few years, MU has taken efforts to re-engage with the Miyaamia tribe, including revitalizing and teaching the language. The Miami sports teams used to be called the Redskins but they are now the Redhawks (racist sports mascots are another issue among many that should be discussed). And any student with Miyaamia roots is able to attend the university free of charge. I don't think there are very many students actually taking advantage of that, but it's a start, and those sorts of gestures are needed. 

 

So maybe  reparations, instead of cash payments, can include free education, job training, social services, and other methods of support to lift up marginalized cultures in areas where they have been disadvantaged, for anyone who can trace their lineage back to slavery, native americans, interned Japanese, etc.

 

 

 

[Ulty]

And to anyone who says that they were never slave owners, they had nothing to do with this, my family had nothing to do with this, it kind of misses the point. I am a white man who has never owned slaves or stolen anyone's land, and to my knowledge my family didn't either. But I have certainly benefited from that culture. I have not been marginalized due to my race and ethnicity.

 

I grew up and live on land that was once populated by indigenous peoples before it was taken from them. So did you, most likely.

I live comfortably, with the privilege of being able to ignore the trials and tribulations of people in my own community with darker skin or from other countries, if chose to do so. So do you, most likely.

I shed a tear on 9/11 while sharing a collective group hug from much of America, while many Americans who had brown skin and might look like an Arab or Muslim did not get to share that same sense of unity. Much like I'm sure Asian Americans felt after Pearl Harbor.

 

I celebrate the 4th of July, I get Memorial Day and President's Day off. I drive on public roads, visit national parks, attended public school, pay into social security, pay my taxes, vote, etc. I take advantage of everything this country has to offer. So do you, most likely.

 

We have fellow Americans who are not able to take advantage of all of the same benefits of our society. We have fellow Americans who have to make more sacrifices and have to jump over more hurdles to get to the same place we are. We have fellow Americans who were dealt a worse hand than you or I at birth, just because they have descended from a different race or nationality. 

 

If we benefit from American society, we also bear a responsibility to our fellow men and women who did not get to realize those same benefits. That's why the discussion about reparations are so important. It's not about punishing you because your family may have once been slave owners, or exempting you because your family did not. It's about correcting generations worth of injustice so that we can all finally be equal.

[NM11046]

^ well said.

 

Our society as a whole has made significant errors that have impacted entire populations in a very detrimental, long lasting way.  

 

As @Ulty and @Nebfanatic have eloquently pointed out, this is a bigger problem than exactly who held ownership to who.  The "slave society" was an issue that everyone in the US was a part of whether they owned or not.  The idea of bettering oneself by moving west to claim land without acknowledging that it actually belonged to someone else was a society issue, not a problem of a few immigrants looking for luck.  You can see it in the thread here the awareness or lack of awareness that our country exhibits of how we collectively created and thrived because of those societies.

 

I'd be willing to wager that a sincere apology and admission of wrong would be an excellent place to start, and may be all that some in the impacted populations would want.  Working to level the field on education, financial support, prison reform and more would also improve the future.  It doesn't have to be a check to someone for their troubles, in fact that gesture is pretty empty without efforts to make bigger change and admit there was a problem in the first place.

[Landlord]

3 hours ago, Nebfanatic said:

I think African Americans and Native Americans are most deserving of reperations. Other minorities proabably have claim to some compensation as well. I don't know how it would work all I know is something should be done.

 

 

Okay. So Will Smith will get reparation money? 

 

What about someone like Trevor Noah who only emigrated to the United States in 2011? 

 

How about white or latin Americans who have some trace amounts of african american ancestry? If you can prove any amount of black heritage whatsoever do you get reparations? Or is it 1/2? 1/4? 1/16?

 

Imagine the lawsuits, controversies, the lobbying. Everything will just be about, "I need to get mine." Which is no way to help a nation heal and move on from it's past imo.

 

 

 

Related, how many people think it's generally a good idea for a poor person to win the lottery jackpot? 

[Landlord]

2 hours ago, NM11046 said:

I'd be willing to wager that a sincere apology and admission of wrong would be an excellent place to start, and may be all that some in the impacted populations would want.  

 

 

From who(m), exactly? At least half of our elected officials, chosen by us to represent us, consistently pander, apologize, and speak out against the ills of our ugly past. And the culture war has already been won as far as dominant orthodox opinions to have on acknowledgment and embarrassment of our treatment of minorities historically. Who are you imagining people would be satisfied by an apology from?

[Nebfanatic]

18 minutes ago, Landlord said:

 

 

Okay. So Will Smith will get reparation money? 

 

What about someone like Trevor Noah who only emigrated to the United States in 2011? 

 

How about white or latin Americans who have some trace amounts of african american ancestry? If you can prove any amount of black heritage whatsoever do you get reparations? Or is it 1/2? 1/4? 1/16?

 

Imagine the lawsuits, controversies, the lobbying. Everything will just be about, "I need to get mine." Which is no way to help a nation heal and move on from it's past imo.

 

 

 

Related, how many people think it's generally a good idea for a poor person to win the lottery jackpot? 

I never said reperations would be in the form of a check and obviously not every African American will be included for various reasons but I thought that might have been clear when I said I don't know how it can be done but that doesn't mean we should just do nothing. 

[teachercd]

28 minutes ago, Landlord said:

 

 

Okay. So Will Smith will get reparation money? 

 

What about someone like Trevor Noah who only emigrated to the United States in 2011? 

 

How about white or latin Americans who have some trace amounts of african american ancestry? If you can prove any amount of black heritage whatsoever do you get reparations? Or is it 1/2? 1/4? 1/16?

 

Imagine the lawsuits, controversies, the lobbying. Everything will just be about, "I need to get mine." Which is no way to help a nation heal and move on from it's past imo.

 

 

 

Related, how many people think it's generally a good idea for a poor person to win the lottery jackpot? 

I don't know why but using Will Smith as an example cracked me up.

 

I do think he helped produce the Karate Kid remake...so if anything he should be paying back anyone that saw that movie.

[NM11046]

And the other half acts like nothing happened and/or things have totally turned around and people are dreaming now when they're experience it personally or have seen what their family has been through. 

 

I have not heard this POTUS do anything of the sort - he has done the opposite.  If Obama had done something formally the right would have lost their minds.

 

100% of the elected officials need to do it - and because of racism and history and sheltered people with heels in the ground there will continue to be deniers and racists elected who will refuse to acknowledge that we have a past that we should not be proud of.  We got the MAGA bs because there are plenty of people who thought America was greater when other races didn't come here to improve their lot, when only whites did so. 

 

The “pander” comment makes my stomach turn.  Do you really feel that people are speaking out for the wrong reason? 

 

Lets take something is simple but as symbolic as statues that honor people who instigated/supported slavery.  The simple act of quietly taking them down because they honored people that should not be looked up to was met with incredible push back.  If the problem has already been solved by many orthodox opiners why did they care? Why did they push back when asked if appropriate clarity on the person and the times could also be explained at sites?  If these monuments could be put in museums where perspective could be provided?

 

Until we acknowledge it was a problem and that a great number of Americans either supported it or did nothing to stop it it remains a problem.  I don't know “who” that needs to come from.  It s kind of like the issue of gun violence - its a problem but folks on the right complain that we cant do this and cant do that etc so nothing is done.  Its a cop out to ignore issues. Do something.  If it isn't the answer thats ok - its a start and its a sign that people are acknowledging the issue and working toward solutions. You never hit a grand slam at your first at bat - you keep swinging until you do.  

[Landlord]

8 minutes ago, Nebfanatic said:

I never said reperations would be in the form of a check and obviously not every African American will be included for various reasons but I thought that might have been clear when I said I don't know how it can be done but that doesn't mean we should just do nothing. 

 

 

I mostly would just like us to all get to an active and acknowledged conclusion that bean counting and handing out checks would very obviously be a bad idea, so  if we want to have a reparations conversation let's just get that out of the way to start. 

[Nebfanatic]

7 minutes ago, Landlord said:

 

 

I mostly would just like us to all get to an active and acknowledged conclusion that bean counting and handing out checks would very obviously be a bad idea, so  if we want to have a reparations conversation let's just get that out of the way to start. 

Well I think we have already done that, but thanks for the reminder 

[Landlord]

1 minute ago, NM11046 said:

And the other half acts like nothing happened and/or things have totally turned around and people are dreaming now when they're experience it personally or have seen what their family has been through. 

 

I might have misspoke with my "half" example, but there's nowhere even close to half of our elected officials who do this. A very small percentage of officials, and a very small percentage of Americans, completely, utterly and absolutely bury their heads in the sand when it comes to our racist history.

 

 

 

1 minute ago, NM11046 said:

The “pander” comment makes my stomach turn.  Do you really feel that people are speaking out for the wrong reason? 

 

 

Of course some are and do. It'd be stupid not to if you're a cutthroat opportunist, which is generally part and parcel with politicians. If you're GOP then you know you can get votes by pandering to racist boomers. If you're a Dem you know you can get votes by pandering to minorities and oppressed people. Of course there are politicians with genuine desires, but no person has a deep care for EVERY issue, and plenty don't have deep cares for many issues, but they will try to get those votes.

 

 

 

1 minute ago, NM11046 said:

Lets take something is simple but as symbolic as statues that honor people who instigated/supported slavery.  The simple act of quietly taking them down because they honored people that should not be looked up to was met with incredible push back.

 

 

That's your opinion that those people memorialized should not be looked up to, and frankly not one that plenty of reasonable and intelligent people share. I, for example, have no interest in demolishing 3/4 of Mount Rushmore, nor do I think that ________________ is inherently a bad role model because they had slaves. If I were a wealthy land owner in the 1700s in America I would have owned slaves, and so would you. 

 

So, maybe some of that push back isn't because of racist people bein all racist and s#!t, but it's people saying, "Hey, hold on, you're looking at this far too simplistically and making a lot of assumptions and I for one haven't come to as simple of a conclusion as you have." 

 

[NM11046]

I dont think any of the efforts to take down monuments involved slave owners but rather confederate “Heros”, white supremacy themes and the honoring the Confederate States of America.  And most were erected during Jim Crow as a monument to “keep the dream alive”.  I never heard that Mt Rushmore was in play.   I think if I recall something like 70% of them are in GA, FL, VA, TN KY, NC, SC etc.  

[Landlord]

Sorry I was going off your words about taking down monuments to people who owned slaves. Which I guess you conflated with confederate heroes, which would reinforce my point of a lot of the pushback not necessarily being racist but more people resisting simplistic overreach getting out of hand. 

 

For the record I'm pretty fine to take down racist Jim Crowe era monuments. Don't need 'em, don't think they do anyone any good.

 

But anyways your answer to my original question of who exactly we're looking for to apologize is.... 100% of elected officials in America? 

[B.B. Hemingway]

Yeesh. This thread.

 

 Landlord may be the only one making any sense.

 

How does an apology work, when those who need to apologize, and those who deserve to be apologized too, are all dead?

 

 

[NM11046]

4 hours ago, Landlord said:

Sorry I was going off your words about taking down monuments to people who owned slaves. Which I guess you conflated with confederate heroes, which would reinforce my point of a lot of the pushback not necessarily being racist but more people resisting simplistic overreach getting out of hand. 

 

For the record I'm pretty fine to take down racist Jim Crowe era monuments. Don't need 'em, don't think they do anyone any good.

 

But anyways your answer to my original question of who exactly we're looking for to apologize is.... 100% of elected officials in America? 

It's a pipe dream yes, but in my vision of the world, one focused on acknowledging the past and improving the future; our elected leaders would join in a unanimous call out of the wrongs done.