For Comparison....

[Ulty]

1 hour ago, 10_point_buck said:

Yeah, we do that in 2020, you can sit with me at a game in 2021 (my choice).  We can talk about which December bowl game we will play in.

He has to sit with you at a game? But what happens if he wins the bet?

[Husker in WI]

1 hour ago, HuskerNation1 said:

 

I think PJ Fleck is a good example of firing his DC in year two, and seeing HUGE gains in the statistical performance of the defense in year 3.  Frost and any other head coach should always be open to changing their assistants after every season ends.  It should be an objective evaluation of each coach based upon goals for that particular season along with the teams performance.  Obviously Year 1 goals should be less intense than Year 2 goals, and most coaches should expect more in Year 3 than Year 2 if an assistant is deserving enough to get a 3rd year.

 

I am not personally a fan of firing head coaches midseason. As for assistants it may be hard on the kids, but if its for the better of the program long-term, then perhaps that is ok.  We are so close to the end of this season that I would prefer Frost wait until after the regular season ends to make any coaching changes. 

For reference, the DC in question took over a team giving up 22.1 ppg in 2016. That stayed at 22.8 in 2017, but ballooned to 31.8 in his part of 2018. Including 55 to a team that averaged 23.3 in all other games. He took over a good defense and started getting terrible results.

 

As has pointed out many times in this thread, Chins took over a terrible defense and has made it better. Not as quickly as we would like, but measurably so. 

[Husker in WI]

Syracuse before Brian Ward in 2015: 31ppg

2016: 38.6

2017: 32.2

2018: 27

2019: 30.7, including 58 to a team averaging 31.1 in a very embarrassing fashion. 

 

He took over a bad defense, made it worse, got it back to where it started, a little better, then regressed. If Chins gives up 30+ in year 4, we can fire him. 

 

Let's stop pretending that firing the DC is a magic bullet. Firing one in year 2 with any kind of improvement is bizarre. Firing DCs who are making things worse is understandable, that's not what we have for now anyway. 

[HuskerNation1]

59 minutes ago, Husker in WI said:

For reference, the DC in question took over a team giving up 22.1 ppg in 2016. That stayed at 22.8 in 2017, but ballooned to 31.8 in his part of 2018. Including 55 to a team that averaged 23.3 in all other games. He took over a good defense and started getting terrible results.

 

As has pointed out many times in this thread, Chins took over a terrible defense and has made it better. Not as quickly as we would like, but measurably so. 

 

Regarding Minnesota, they went from 37th in total defense in 2017 to 59th in 2019 so you could argue they went from being good  to average, and yet Fleck saw a poor trajectory and made the executive decision to change course.  

 

I agree that Nebraska sucked defensively in 2017 (ranked 116th in total team defense), but they were in the top 35 in 2016 with Banker.  In 2018 Nebraska was 88th in Total Defense and are currently 81st and still have 2 of their toughest opponents left on the schedule.  Banker's results have been better than Chins and Banker was let go.  I realize the talent and competition are always different depending on what year you are looking at, but at the end of the day, has Chinander met or exceeded expectations in Year 2, or has he struggled more than expected.  I think most fans believe the latter, and its ultimately up to Frost if he believes Chin is the answer for the future.  The reality is that Chin has NEVER led a stout defense as UCF had to score 50 points in most games to beat their toughest competition.  

[Husker in WI]

4 minutes ago, HuskerNation1 said:

 

Regarding Minnesota, they went from 37th in total defense in 2017 to 59th in 2019 so you could argue they went from being good  to average, and yet Fleck saw a poor trajectory and made the executive decision to change course.  

 

I agree that Nebraska sucked defensively in 2017 (ranked 116th in total team defense), but they were in the top 35 in 2016 with Banker.  In 2018 Nebraska was 88th in Total Defense and are currently 81st and still have 2 of their toughest opponents left on the schedule.  Banker's results have been better than Chins and Banker was let go.  I realize the talent and competition are always different depending on what year you are looking at, but at the end of the day, has Chinander met or exceeded expectations in Year 2, or has he struggled more than expected.  I think most fans believe the latter, and its ultimately up to Frost if he believes Chin is the answer for the future.  The reality is that Chin has NEVER led a stout defense as UCF had to score 50 points in most games to beat their toughest competition.  

 

That 59th rank for Minnesota is including the last 4 games where the new DC only gave up 12.3 per game. I don't know where they were ranked after 9, but their average at that point would've finished tied for 92nd. 

 

Bankers defenses were statistically not bad, but I think the Iowa bloodbath game sealed his fate. And that should have helped Chins - 2 years removed from a good defense isn't a complete dumpster fire. But there was s lot of roster turnover, which I don't think the new Minnesota DC is dealing with. You're right Chinander has struggled more than expected, but I don't have to squint too hard to see what seem like valid reasons. Just trying to point out the differences between this and other situations where the DC was fired. 

[HuskerNation1]

7 minutes ago, Husker in WI said:

 

That 59th rank for Minnesota is including the last 4 games where the new DC only gave up 12.3 per game. I don't know where they were ranked after 9, but their average at that point would've finished tied for 92nd. 

 

Bankers defenses were statistically not bad, but I think the Iowa bloodbath game sealed his fate. And that should have helped Chins - 2 years removed from a good defense isn't a complete dumpster fire. But there was s lot of roster turnover, which I don't think the new Minnesota DC is dealing with. You're right Chinander has struggled more than expected, but I don't have to squint too hard to see what seem like valid reasons. Just trying to point out the differences between this and other situations where the DC was fired. 

 

The part I bolded...I actually think Chin is doing what I personally expected.  If you go back and look at the threads for who Frost's assistants were going to be, I know many of us were not happy with the hiring of Chin as he struggled at UCF as well. So in a way he is doing as I expected, but that is not a good thing when expectations were pretty low.  

 

I also question Chin's ability to coach the X's and O's.  Against Indiana, a team that had an accurate pocket passer, he chose not to blitz which gave the Indiana QB all day to throw.  Chin has also struggled all season with halftime adjustments, and to me that is a reflection of his decision making and judgment.  

[TheSker]

5 minutes ago, HuskerNation1 said:

I also question Chin's ability to coach the X's and O's.  Against Indiana, a team that had an accurate pocket passer, he chose not to blitz which gave the Indiana QB all day to throw.  Chin has also struggled all season with halftime adjustments, and to me that is a reflection of his decision making and judgment.  

It's funny that so many know that Frost says we had our best week of practice in his pressers, but obviously nothing else he says.

 

.......because Frost has talked about our blitzing every week for a while now....

[SFW]

The problem is Final Drive Chinander and his soft zone defense has cost us 7 games, to opponents on their last offensive positions.

 

We by comparison would  feel totally different about the state of the program if we cold stop someone at the end of a game.

 

 

[Jeremy]

11 hours ago, HuskerNation1 said:

 

The part I bolded...I actually think Chin is doing what I personally expected.  If you go back and look at the threads for who Frost's assistants were going to be, I know many of us were not happy with the hiring of Chin as he struggled at UCF as well. So in a way he is doing as I expected, but that is not a good thing when expectations were pretty low.  

 

I also question Chin's ability to coach the X's and O's.  Against Indiana, a team that had an accurate pocket passer, he chose not to blitz which gave the Indiana QB all day to throw.  Chin has also struggled all season with halftime adjustments, and to me that is a reflection of his decision making and judgment.  

If we get some better athletes, legit pass-rushers, maybe his defense will look better, but I doubt it. I remember we were all hoping Grinch would somehow find his way to Lincoln when we got Frost, but, honestly, the Sooners didn't look very stout at all against KSU. So, while Grinch may not have been the guy, we would probably have a few more wins with him.

[twofittyonred]

13 hours ago, Husker in WI said:

Syracuse before Brian Ward in 2015: 31ppg

2016: 38.6

2017: 32.2

2018: 27

2019: 30.7, including 58 to a team averaging 31.1 in a very embarrassing fashion. 

 

He took over a bad defense, made it worse, got it back to where it started, a little better, then regressed. If Chins gives up 30+ in year 4, we can fire him. 

 

Let's stop pretending that firing the DC is a magic bullet. Firing one in year 2 with any kind of improvement is bizarre. Firing DCs who are making things worse is understandable, that's not what we have for now anyway. 

We get it... You are okay with a defense that gives up 30 points to mediocre teams.  You are okay with a defense that makes 3rd string QBs look like Heisman candidates.  But for most that KNOW football...  its not acceptable.. 

[Husker in WI]

1 minute ago, twofittyonred said:

We get it... You are okay with a defense that gives up 30 points to mediocre teams.  You are okay with a defense that makes 3rd string QBs look like Heisman candidates.  But for most that KNOW football...  its not acceptable.. 

 

No, I'm just calling BS on the "Minnesota and Syracuse fired their DCs, so should we!" arguments because those are entirely different situations. That was Syracuse's DCs 4th year and they were getting worse. Minny's DC took over a defense giving up 14 fewer points per game than the one Chinander inherited, and made them 9 points per game worse in year 2. I just understand the situation Chins inherited, and think the improvement is enough to not fire him for now.

 

Find me another example of a guy taking over a 36ppg defense, or even close to that, and having them completely turned around in year 2.

[Nebfanatic]

21 minutes ago, Husker in WI said:

 

Find me another example of a guy taking over a 36ppg defense, or even close to that, and having them completely turned around in year 2.

Unfortunatly I can think of one example people are gonna cling to. Carl Pelini.

[Husker in WI]

2 minutes ago, Nebfanatic said:

Unfortunatly I can think of one example people are gonna cling to. Carl Pelini.

 

Ok fine. We can rehire Carl.

[Nebfanatic]

Just now, Husker in WI said:

 

Ok fine. We can rehire Carl.

He did take over a defense giving up 38 points a game and turned them into the best defense in the country in year 2. Not sure of another turnaround that drastic. Of course that team was loaded with defensive talent. I'd venture to guess we would look a bit better with those players on our team.

[Husker in WI]

Just now, Nebfanatic said:

He did take over a defense giving up 38 points a game and turned them into the best defense in the country in year 2. Not sure of another turnaround that drastic. Of course that team was loaded with defensive talent. I'd venture to guess we would look a bit better with those players on our team.

 

Yeah, I had forgotten just how bad 2007 was. And how good 2009 was. But they did start regressing immediately after '09 as well, from 10 ppg > 17 > 24, and then they settled in the 24-27 range. So I'd prefer something a little more sustainable, which Chinander may or may not be building.