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Burrow let us discuss


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On 12/29/2019 at 1:08 AM, BigPeterJ said:

I think the frustration has less to do with how good Burrow is, and more to do with how bad Adrian is (now).  At the time of Frosts decision it seemed to be the right one. But mentally Burrow is on a completely different level than Adrian right now.  

 

You cant blame his shoulder injury on his NON-THROWING shoulder past the halfway point in the season.   If im honest, and not trying to spare someones feelings, AM is as off mentally as i have EVER seen a starting QB.  You could heal all his injuries, put LSU's offensive line in front of him, give him LSU's receivers, and he STILL will not time the throws right, not see open guys, hesitate on his decisions, and often miss open receivers even when he DOES see them, including simple screen passes that will not hit the runner in stride.  

 

I dont know what the kid is going through, and its nothing about Character, but even with plenty of fans admitting how off Martinez was this entire year, overall i dont think most of our fan base on here at least realizes just how bad he was.  It amazes me how many people will blame the OL, the Receivers, and the defense more than the QB, or blame injuries, some phantom sophmore slump theory, anything other than how mentally god aweful he was.  Its just the truth.

 

Someone mentioned how much of a difference 1 really good player makes.  Especially at QB.  With a healthy Vedral (a halfway decent QB) we are 7-5 this year instead of 5-7.  With a Joe Burrow level QB (and dont tell me Adrian was much faster than burrow or could buy any more time than Burrow with his legs this year) even if he is not a supposed dual threat QB, we are 9-3 this year.  Thats how much difference a very good QB vs a bad QB can make.

 

A lot to unpack here. I don't have much time, but the thing that sticks out immediately to me is If you're of the opinion that an injury to the non-throwing shoulder doesn't matter you've never thrown a baseball or football property one time. Clearly, there are differences between the front side and the throwing arm. But your front side is extremely important. Stand sideways and throw a baseball or football without raising your off shoulder/arm. 

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11 minutes ago, Nebfanatic said:

Physicality wasn't their problem Saturday. They didn't have the secondary to cover LSUs passing game. OU stuffed the run, but the LSU receiving corp was too good, they couldn't cover them. That was the difference in the game and it was a big difference

LSU averaged 5.0 yards per carry with their best runningback not even playing. I wouldnt say Oklahoma stuffed the run. Maybe they couldnt stop their passing game because their DB's were not physical enough to give the receivers trouble. The announcers called out how LSU's plan was to be physical with the Oklahoma receivers because they were not used to that. The big12 is afraid of keeping up with their receivers so they play off- so LSU's gameplan was to be physical- play man- jamb at the line etc. It showed because they struggled to get open.

 

If anyone got stuffed it was Oklahoma's run game. They had less than 100 yards and a 3.5 average.

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23 minutes ago, Huskers93-97 said:

I would hope this game was a wakeup call for Oklahoma that they need to become more physical. The 2 hand touch football thats played in the pac12 and big12 does not match up well to Big10 and SEC football. Or the top of the ACC like clemson. 

 

So Oklahoma needs to build their team to compete with Big10 and SEC physical football and not just try to be the best of the big12. I think they have and can get similiar talent to LSU- the recruiting rankings say they can and do. They just need to change their approach. Much like Nebraska had to change their approach to more speed in the early 90's. 

 

How much can OU really change their defense?  I don't think OU gets similar talent to LSU from top to bottom.  They may very well get just as good of skill players on offense as LSU, but they don't get similar talent to LSU defensively.  Venables was pretty much ran out of town at OU because of poor defensive play.  Now that he's at Clemson with better athletes, he's considered one of the very best defensive coordinators in the land.  Mike Stoops was once considered a defensive guru at OU a couple of decades ago.  They brought him back after he tried his luck as a head coach.  His second stint at OU as defensive coordinator didn't go so well.  Was it because he forgot everything he ever knew about defense?  No, it was because he didn't have the talent. 

 

This is where I think we become more or less like OU.  I do believe we will be able to get skill players especially on offense comparable to the best teams.  However, I don't think we'll be able to hang with the best teams in terms of trench players and defensive players.  I'm just not convinced that OU needs a wakeup call.  I think they know where they're at and what their limitations are.  The best they can hope for is that their defense can get just enough stops to allow their offense more opportunities.  Considering the staff Frost has assembled, I believe this is our goal as well.  It's doubtful either team consistently fields a top 10 defense. 

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12 minutes ago, junior4949 said:

 

How much can OU really change their defense?  I don't think OU gets similar talent to LSU from top to bottom.  They may very well get just as good of skill players on offense as LSU, but they don't get similar talent to LSU defensively.  Venables was pretty much ran out of town at OU because of poor defensive play.  Now that he's at Clemson with better athletes, he's considered one of the very best defensive coordinators in the land.  Mike Stoops was once considered a defensive guru at OU a couple of decades ago.  They brought him back after he tried his luck as a head coach.  His second stint at OU as defensive coordinator didn't go so well.  Was it because he forgot everything he ever knew about defense?  No, it was because he didn't have the talent. 

 

This is where I think we become more or less like OU.  I do believe we will be able to get skill players especially on offense comparable to the best teams.  However, I don't think we'll be able to hang with the best teams in terms of trench players and defensive players.  I'm just not convinced that OU needs a wakeup call.  I think they know where they're at and what their limitations are.  The best they can hope for is that their defense can get just enough stops to allow their offense more opportunities.  Considering the staff Frost has assembled, I believe this is our goal as well.  It's doubtful either team consistently fields a top 10 defense. 

Its all about what you focus on. OU has put their eggs in the offensive basket. To say they cant be good at defense is just dumb. They choose to value offense first- air raid offense. Oklahoma is just as southern as most of the SEC. They have built their team to compete in the big12/pac12 mold. Bunch of DB's to play 5 wide sets. 

 

One of my biggest pet peeves is fans and media who say things as fact when history says otherwise. The game has passed Nebraska by, they cant be good now, you cant recruit to Nebraska. The best we can hope for is to win a big 10 west title. The north is dead in football- only the south matters. I am sorry but that narrative is being proven false with the resurgence of the big 10- penn state, ohio state, michigan, wisconsin and soon to be Nebraska are a force. Minnesota is climbing, Iowa is climbing. On and On. 

 

Sometime in the late 50's Bill Jennings said you can not win big at Nebraska- you cant recruit enough talent here. Then Bob Devaney took the job and said hold my beer. 

 

In the early 2000's Stoops had Oklahoma as one of the best defensive teams in the country. Then for some reason converted to trying to score 50 points every week.

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24 minutes ago, Huskers93-97 said:

LSU averaged 5.0 yards per carry with their best runningback not even playing. I wouldnt say Oklahoma stuffed the run. Maybe they couldnt stop their passing game because their DB's were not physical enough to give the receivers trouble. The announcers called out how LSU's plan was to be physical with the Oklahoma receivers because they were not used to that. The big12 is afraid of keeping up with their receivers so they play off- so LSU's gameplan was to be physical- play man- jamb at the line etc. It showed because they struggled to get open.

 

If anyone got stuffed it was Oklahoma's run game. They had less than 100 yards and a 3.5 average.

And if you watched the game you saw they had a couple good runs but really couldn't get the run game going. It isn't about physicality as far as the reciever DB matchup as it is athleticism and speed. LSU is able to play bump and run because they have the best corner in the country and a bevy of other incredibly talented DBs. That is what allows them to be physical with the receivers. If OU would have played bump and run physical coverage they would have gotten burned worse. They don't have the athletes to cover LSUs recievers in bump and run coverage plain and simple. Physicality would not have helped. Georgia is a physical football team and they got smacked too. I'd say the biggest advantage LSU has is speed everywhere especially on defense. 

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3 hours ago, Huskers93-97 said:

I think my main issue with the lack of interest in Burrow is that I hope moving forward if we have an opportunity to bring in a quality player to provide depth or possibly win the job we do it. LSU, Oklahoma and Ohio State were all in the playoff with transfer QB's. All 3 of those schools probably had better rated QB's on their roster already than we did. Yet they still pursued and took a transfer. 

  One who helped his team get to 3 NC's and the other being the #3 ranked QB prospect of all time behind Vince Young and Trevor Lawrence. It's not like they just took any QB cause their depth was hurting.

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On 12/29/2019 at 1:08 AM, BigPeterJ said:

I think the frustration has less to do with how good Burrow is, and more to do with how bad Adrian is (now).  At the time of Frosts decision it seemed to be the right one. But mentally Burrow is on a completely different level than Adrian right now.  

 

I agree. Based on what we knew at the time, I agreed with Frost's decision. It was undoubtedly a gamble but it was a calculated one.

 

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You cant blame his shoulder injury on his NON-THROWING shoulder past the halfway point in the season.

 

Speaking from personal experience, this is inaccurate. I played QB for one year in high school and suffered rotator cuff injury in my left (non-throwing) shoulder that happened in the second game of the season. It was miserable. Every time I lifted my left arm above my rib cage I had a shooting pain in my shoulder/deltoid. Totally screwed with my accuracy and mechanics. It had a major impact on my whole throwing motion and ultimately led to us having to split QB's so I could be more of a runner. It was miserable.

 

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You could heal all his injuries, put LSU's offensive line in front of him, give him LSU's receivers, and he STILL will not time the throws right, not see open guys, hesitate on his decisions, and often miss open receivers even when he DOES see them, including simple screen passes that will not hit the runner in stride.  

 

I dont know what the kid is going through, and its nothing about Character, but even with plenty of fans admitting how off Martinez was this entire year, overall i dont think most of our fan base on here at least realizes just how bad he was.  It amazes me how many people will blame the OL, the Receivers, and the defense more than the QB, or blame injuries, some phantom sophmore slump theory, anything other than how mentally god aweful he was.  Its just the truth.


Someone mentioned how much of a difference 1 really good player makes.  Especially at QB.  With a healthy Vedral (a halfway decent QB) we are 7-5 this year instead of 5-7.  With a Joe Burrow level QB (and dont tell me Adrian was much faster than burrow or could buy any more time than Burrow with his legs this year) even if he is not a supposed dual threat QB, we are 9-3 this year.  Thats how much difference a very good QB vs a bad QB can make.

 

There's a lot to sift through here, but ultimately I think this is accurate and inaccurate. I think you're significantly undervaluing just how much impact a better supporting cast could've had on Martinez' play and development (injury notwithstanding.) Comparing LSU's offense and talent to ours is like comparing apples to slightly moldy oranges. And yes, while a Burrow level player certainly could've made the difference between being bowl eligible and not being bowl eligible, it doesn't hold much weight with me.

 

Going on 7-5 with a team that has to rely heavily on one player to make things happen isn't a very good recipe for success nine times out 10. It certainly works, but assuming that we're all in this for the long haul and hoping for a better overall "team," I'll take all these growing pains now if it means we're not having to rely on one really good QB to help us win games in the future.

 

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21 minutes ago, Huskers93-97 said:

Its all about what you focus on. OU has put their eggs in the offensive basket. To say they cant be good at defense is just dumb. They choose to value offense first- air raid offense. Oklahoma is just as southern as most of the SEC. They have built their team to compete in the big12/pac12 mold. Bunch of DB's to play 5 wide sets. 

 

One of my biggest pet peeves is fans and media who say things as fact when history says otherwise. The game has passed Nebraska by, they cant be good now, you cant recruit to Nebraska. The best we can hope for is to win a big 10 west title. The north is dead in football- only the south matters. I am sorry but that narrative is being proven false with the resurgence of the big 10- penn state, ohio state, michigan, wisconsin and soon to be Nebraska are a force. Minnesota is climbing, Iowa is climbing. On and On. 

 

Sometime in the late 50's Bill Jennings said you can not win big at Nebraska- you cant recruit enough talent here. Then Bob Devaney took the job and said hold my beer. 

 

In the early 2000's Stoops had Oklahoma as one of the best defensive teams in the country. Then for some reason converted to trying to score 50 points every week.

 

Bob Stoops was one of the best defensive coordinators in the game before becoming a head coach.  Steve Spurrier more than likely never wins a NC without him.  No, I think something else changed in the early 2000's.  It was the emergence and almost complete dominance of the Southeast.  There has only been one NC winning team in the last decade and a half that didn't reside in the Southeast.  I'm not sure how history is saying otherwise when the NC winning team has been from the Southeast of the U.S. all but one time in the last decade and a half.   

 

I'm not really sure how one determines the resurgence of the Big 10.  Ohio State was at or near the top before we ever had the playoffs.  The B1G has only put two teams in the playoffs.  Michigan State's showing in the playoff speaks for itself.  There wasn't a team you mentioned that even came within a score of beating Ohio State this year.  The B1G isn't a bad conference, but it is rather top heavy.   

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13 hours ago, BigPeterJ said:

The reason for it is that i believe very strongly that, although their were many reasons we are 5-7, the single biggest reason was our QB play.   The QB has more effect on the outcome of a game than any other single player on a team, not just for Nebraska.  

 

What gives you that idea? We've had worse quarterback play *most* of the last 15 years, and a lot of those quarterbacks have had better records. Adrian played great in 2018, yet we went 4-8. So what evidence are you basing this opinion on?

 

 

13 hours ago, BigPeterJ said:

To point out how big of a difference the QB can make, with Burrow at QB we dont lose to Colorado, Indiana, Purdue, or Iowa. 

 

If we had a defense with more depth, or maybe a more experienced D coordinator, or a more dominant offensive line, we don't lose to Colorado, Indiana, Purdue or Iowa. That's not only true of having a better quarterback.

 

 

 

13 hours ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

I was more bothered by Martinez hesitating to run when all of Memorial Stadium could see the first down turf that was his for the taking. 

 

I think most people would be surprised to find out how often Adrian actually ran this year, and how often it was on designed pass plays. I've asked a few times for people to give me video examples of this supposed hesitation (more than just like HE DID IT ONE TIME OMG), because I didn't see it the same way. What others were seeing as hesitation I saw as a loss in athleticism and a slower step due to adding a lot of weight. If you look back on his freshman year, he's a very patient runner with a good instinct for bouncing outside. Much harder to do, and much easier to look indecisive with that running style when you're not getting to the edge well imo.

 

 

13 hours ago, BigPeterJ said:

Were all the receivers covered? Or did he not see them when they were open?

 

Hmm, great question. Seems like something we should probably know the answer to before firmly evaluating the quarterback don't you think?

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14 hours ago, BigPeterJ said:

I admit that i have been beating this drum about Martinez for a while now.  The reason for it is that i believe very strongly that, although their were many reasons we are 5-7, the single biggest reason was our QB play.

 

I would honestly rank both poor special teams play and poor linebacker play ahead of bad QB play. And in that order, too.

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3 hours ago, Undone said:

 

I would honestly rank both poor special teams play and poor linebacker play ahead of bad QB play. And in that order, too.

Fair enough.  We all share our opinions, and dont have to agree to get along.  But as to yours, i can see why either good S.T. or good Linebacker play may have also made the difference between 5-7 and 9-3.  But good LB play involves 4 players doing better as a unit, S.T.  involves a group of players.  QB may have just as much impact and it is only 1 player.  

 

The larger point is that it doesn't take much to go from 5-7 to 9-3.  Atleast this year.  

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5 hours ago, junior4949 said:

 

Bob Stoops was one of the best defensive coordinators in the game before becoming a head coach.  Steve Spurrier more than likely never wins a NC without him.  No, I think something else changed in the early 2000's.  It was the emergence and almost complete dominance of the Southeast.  There has only been one NC winning team in the last decade and a half that didn't reside in the Southeast.  I'm not sure how history is saying otherwise when the NC winning team has been from the Southeast of the U.S. all but one time in the last decade and a half.   

 

I'm not really sure how one determines the resurgence of the Big 10.  Ohio State was at or near the top before we ever had the playoffs.  The B1G has only put two teams in the playoffs.  Michigan State's showing in the playoff speaks for itself.  There wasn't a team you mentioned that even came within a score of beating Ohio State this year.  The B1G isn't a bad conference, but it is rather top heavy.   

So is the SEC, in fact more so than the big10.  The pac12 and ACC are just meh.  The big 12 wasn’t very good at all.

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5 hours ago, Landlord said:

 

What gives you that idea? We've had worse quarterback play *most* of the last 15 years, and a lot of those quarterbacks have had better records. Adrian played great in 2018, yet we went 4-8. So what evidence are you basing this opinion on?

 

 

 

If we had a defense with more depth, or maybe a more experienced D coordinator, or a more dominant offensive line, we don't lose to Colorado, Indiana, Purdue or Iowa. That's not only true of having a better quarterback.

 

 

 

 

I think most people would be surprised to find out how often Adrian actually ran this year, and how often it was on designed pass plays. I've asked a few times for people to give me video examples of this supposed hesitation (more than just like HE DID IT ONE TIME OMG), because I didn't see it the same way. What others were seeing as hesitation I saw as a loss in athleticism and a slower step due to adding a lot of weight. If you look back on his freshman year, he's a very patient runner with a good instinct for bouncing outside. Much harder to do, and much easier to look indecisive with that running style when you're not getting to the edge well imo.

 

 

 

Hmm, great question. Seems like something we should probably know the answer to before firmly evaluating the quarterback don't you think?

 

I feel a lot of people will be shocked at how much of a difference having more than one WR will have on the offense.

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On 12/29/2019 at 1:00 AM, URSS said:

Just blaming Bo and Beck for not recruiting Burrow is not correct.  Scott Frost turned down Burrow’s father inquiry before zJoe went to LSU from OSU.  
 

I think the comments that Burrow would not have done well if he had come to NU because our O linemen and receivers are inferior to LSU’s miss the mark too.

 

The real issue is who and how are players evaluated and recruited by the Husker coaches.  It’s not just Burrow being missed.  It’s also all of the other players that were evaluated by this same process and coaches.  We have had several sets of coaches recruiting and we have fallen short of being able to compete in the Bid 10 West let alone the entire Big 10 and the rest of the nation.  
 

Joe Burrow did not just develop his skills two years ago in Lafayette.  Apparently Urban Meyer missed it too.  But why didn’t the coaches in Lincoln see it?  How many really good offensive linemen have we missed?  
I don’t discount the need for good coaches to develop and improve players BUT WE HAVE NOT DONE VERY WELL IN THAT AREA EITHER.

This is such a short sided take it’s funny.   Bo and beck are 99.9% responsible for snubbing burrow.  Frost had a good qb room when he arrived with obvious roster issues at olb and wr that REQUIRED more bodies than the qb room.  If pelini isn’t a clown burrow is already here.  Secondly, urban didn’t “miss” he offered him and through a transparent process, even by burrow recollection, lost to one of the statistically better qbs in osu history.  

 

Lastly, I’ll ask a burning question I have.  Do we get to compare 5 yr Adrian Martinez with an nfl caliber supporting cast to 19 yr old joe burrow with a second tier oline and walkon skill position players or nahh.

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After watching the first game this year, I made the comment that Adrian did not look right and felt it was the extra weight he put on.  Adding a shoulder injury to the deal and trying to compete in Division 1 Football it is easy to understand. 

 

I read somewhere that Coach Meyer walked by Burrow and said D3.  Possibly one of the better coaches in the country did not know what he had.

 

There was no indication that Joe Burrow would do what he did this year, not a clue.  Coach O made the comment he was a game changer in pre season interviews, but I don't think the media had any idea of just how good he was this year, after last years performance.

 

He would have struggled here. 

 

LSU 2019 may go down as one of the best of all time.  

 

Still think it is fantastic for the kid.  Some things are just meant to turn out like they do.  Will be rooting for him and Coach O.  

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