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Current state of US vs. other times in US History


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Starting this based on a question @ActualCornHusker posed to me in another thread - I thought it worthy of a focused discussion.  So he get's all the credit.

 

"I'm genuinely interested in how you view the overall tension in the country. On a scale of "Post-WW2" to "The Civil War", how do you view the tension that exists in the political landscape currently, and how big of a "threat" do you view Trump as to the Republic?"  

 

I'd add:  How does today's atmosphere compare to that of the nation during Nixon's and Clinton's impeachment hearings?

 

 

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It's tough to compare, but I'd say these are concerning times - compared to the Civil War?  Probably not, as we had an entire population treated like vermin, and a good part of our citizens thinking that was ok.  Not everyone was allowed the right to vote for their representation.  So I think now in many senses we're better off than then.  

BUT: While we don't have anything remotely like slavery, is putting children in cages, leaving people sick an un-innoculated at and within our borders so very different?  I'm grateful that there was outrage at that, but I'm pretty shocked that it wasn't as significant as the crime.    And how fast did people loose focus on that?  Why did we not fill the streets?

 

I think our social media and ever evolving news cycles have escalated peoples uninformed opinions on policitcs and have increased partisanship.  That's something that wasn't an issue with other times.  Even if you look at Nixon's Watergate, there were three news networks that were trusted, and delivered the same facts, just by different anchors.  There were newspapers and people read.  And the representatives that people elected truly looked at the evidence with a critical eye, and when it became overwhelming they did the right thing for the country.

 

Re: post WWII I think there was likely never a time the country was more unified.  (Maybe in the immediate aftermath of 9-11) but looking back now at the GI Bill, government sponsored home loans and more were tailored to benefit the white population exclusively.  I can't speak to that time, but I don't get the sense that there was a lot of outrage about it - in fact I know we've had debates here about how those initiatives at that time in addition to many others were part of what has held back many minorities.

 

I think net-net is that the US has been through horrible times, and in my opinion this is one of them.  We've bounced back before, my concern this time is that I don't see the same selfless, patriots coming forward to do the right thing.  The state of the GOP should concern everyone, that they are doing zero checks and balances makes me more fearful that this time is not like the others.  What's been done to the courts will have long lasting impacts and not (imo) in a good way toward improving life in the US.

 

Madeline Albright wrote a book somewhat recently that I keep meaning to get to comparing what's happening today in the world (US and elsewhere) and how it fits into the facism that has happened historically.   History repeats itself, and I think we're living in a time where people are putting their heads in the sand instead of looking at how this has played out elsewhere in the past.

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Thanks for the response to the question. We're undoubtedly in a challenging time in the country. News sources don't actually report news - they all have panels of people trying to force their opinions on their viewers. Fake or exaggerated facts run rampant on social media, most of which is intended to inspire outrage and division. And to top it off, people today have an all time low amount of faith in their institutions.

 

Then we get to the Trump conundrum. I see a lot of people on the left point to Trump as a source of many of these problems, but I see Trump as a result of them - a retaliation. The government was in rough shape long before Trump got there. Do you see it this way @NM11046?

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I do agree - I think because people live in their computers they look to anchors and tv personalities as "friends" and then associate trust with that relationship - my parents can't miss all their people on the Five on Five everyday.  People get comfortable and want to get their ideas reinforced rather than challenged, and nobody wants to learn - we see it here on the board when someone posts factual articles and people refuse to not just read them, but even consider them.  We are a lazy population.

 

And no, Trump isn't the reason - he's a very visible source now, but we got here due to lots of time working toward it.  I think it started with Newt Gingrich.  That's when there started to be an assault on the constitution and how the founders set up the system of checks and balances.  Can you imagine 50 years ago the speaker of the house declaring "my whole job for the next 4 years is to make sure nothing this admin tries to do succeeds."  What sort of representative of the people who is working for the greater good of the country does that?

 

Its sad that theonly time our country is unified is after a tragedy.  9-11, death of McCain etc.  How quickly we forget.

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11 hours ago, ActualCornHusker said:

Thanks for the response to the question. We're undoubtedly in a challenging time in the country. News sources don't actually report news - they all have panels of people trying to force their opinions on their viewers. Fake or exaggerated facts run rampant on social media, most of which is intended to inspire outrage and division. And to top it off, people today have an all time low amount of faith in their institutions.

You've said a lot in a few sentences here.  First off....to the bolded.  This is a total myth that has been propagated by the likes of right wing media outlets like Rush Limbaugh and Fox News.  Like it's been said on here, Fox News actually reports some pretty good news from their  journalism rooms.  So does CNN.  So does CNBC.  So does NBC, ABC, CBS.  But, for some reason, back in the 80s, a few right wing loud mouths started planting the seeds of "fake news" and "left wing Lame Stream Media"..."Fair and Balanced".  This has boiled over in the last 10 years to the point where we now have a President that his total administration is built around the myth that certain complete news outlets (not just their opinion shows) are fake.  Interestingly....they are always the ones that report something bad about him.  Funny how that happens.  

 

Now, this leads to the rest of your paragraph.  This has lead a significant number of our population to think they need to believe social media crap that is circulated by people who don't have our country's best interest at heart.  One big player in this is Russia.  It has been proven they are the biggest creator of these misleading or totally fake posts that go viral.  I remember a while back, someone who supports Trump on here said...."meh...all Russia did was post a few things on Facebook".  That person has absolutely no clue the influence those have....or, he's choosing to ignore it because it helps his side.

 

To get to the gist of the original question.  We are in a  very very difficult time in our country.  The Civil War and the 60s and early 70s were extremely tough.  We literally had a war on our soil between states that killed more Americans than any other foreign war.  The 60s and 70s saw extreme unrest, unjust wars and assassinations and impeachment of our political leaders.  


This situation is different than all of those because of what I discussed in my first two paragraphs.  A significant amount of our population is caught in this information bubble that they can't get out of, mainly because they don't realize they need out.  Everything they read and hear shows that they are right and it constantly is taking them deeper and deeper in that direction.  Then, when you have the leader of our country that is even promoting this...it's a major issue.  Actually, this might be one of the biggest reasons he should be thrown out of office.  He directly has lead to an increase in what you said in your last sentence.  He is living off of America not having trust and faith in our institutions.  One of the biggest is his constant attack on our intelligence community.  This same intelligence community has the job of investigating anyone in our government and letting us know when something is wrong.  Well......gee.....wonder why he's constantly attacking them.

 

I have no clue how we are going to get out of this but I am very concerned about the America my kids are going to raise their families in.  

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1 hour ago, BigRedBuster said:

You've said a lot in a few sentences here.  First off....to the bolded.  This is a total myth that has been propagated by the likes of right wing media outlets like Rush Limbaugh and Fox News.  Like it's been said on here, Fox News actually reports some pretty good news from their  journalism rooms.  So does CNN.  So does CNBC.  So does NBC, ABC, CBS.  But, for some reason, back in the 80s, a few right wing loud mouths started planting the seeds of "fake news" and "left wing Lame Stream Media"..."Fair and Balanced".  This has boiled over in the last 10 years to the point where we now have a President that his total administration is built around the myth that certain complete news outlets (not just their opinion shows) are fake.  Interestingly....they are always the ones that report something bad about him.  Funny how that happens.  

 

Now, this leads to the rest of your paragraph.  This has lead a significant number of our population to think they need to believe social media crap that is circulated by people who don't have our country's best interest at heart.  One big player in this is Russia.  It has been proven they are the biggest creator of these misleading or totally fake posts that go viral.  I remember a while back, someone who supports Trump on here said...."meh...all Russia did was post a few things on Facebook".  That person has absolutely no clue the influence those have....or, he's choosing to ignore it because it helps his side.

 

To get to the gist of the original question.  We are in a  very very difficult time in our country.  The Civil War and the 60s and early 70s were extremely tough.  We literally had a war on our soil between states that killed more Americans than any other foreign war.  The 60s and 70s saw extreme unrest, unjust wars and assassinations and impeachment of our political leaders.  


This situation is different than all of those because of what I discussed in my first two paragraphs.  A significant amount of our population is caught in this information bubble that they can't get out of, mainly because they don't realize they need out.  Everything they read and hear shows that they are right and it constantly is taking them deeper and deeper in that direction.  Then, when you have the leader of our country that is even promoting this...it's a major issue.  Actually, this might be one of the biggest reasons he should be thrown out of office.  He directly has lead to an increase in what you said in your last sentence.  He is living off of America not having trust and faith in our institutions.  One of the biggest is his constant attack on our intelligence community.  This same intelligence community has the job of investigating anyone in our government and letting us know when something is wrong.  Well......gee.....wonder why he's constantly attacking them.

 

I have no clue how we are going to get out of this but I am very concerned about the America my kids are going to raise their families in.  

 

Interesting input for sure. Question regarding mainstream media: What percentage of the "news" that's reported on Fox, MSNBC, CNN, ABC, CBS, etc do you feel is actually credible news with verified sources of information without being spun to fit a narrative? I don't need Donald Trump to say anything for me to know that the percentage of actual legitimate reporting is EXTREMELY low... That's irresponsible at best & more likely outright crooked in my view. I'd be interested in what you think on that.

 

As far as social media, yes, there are definitely foreign parties that create fake posts with the intention to stir people up and divide them - Russia is undoubtedly a BIG part of that. And again, the media presents it as Russia trying to influence our election in favor of Trump, but that's not what happened in 2016. It was to create outrage among extremists on both right and left. Other than that, it's mostly boomers like my aunt that share anything that comes across their feed and confirms their viewpoint, without any verification of that info (side note: I always find it funny when in the course of a few hours, she'll share a post blasting socialist programs and another post praising social security). But that's a really tough spot also. I personally don't want Washington or Silicon Valley to determine what's "real news" and decide for me what I can see on my feed. There's got to be ways to combat that other than censorship. It's already an issue on platforms like Youtube and Facebook, and they haven't really done much yet.

 

Regarding our current situation and hopefully answering @knapplc question as well: Say what you want about the framers of the constitution, but our constitution is a masterpiece in regards to historical observation of the inevitable slide toward tyranny that ALL governments are subject to. The governmental structure that was set up 250ish years ago was to ensure that the executive branch doesn't have too much power. Over the past hundred years or so (probably longer) we've seen that balance of power erode gradually to the point where the president can use an executive order and bypass congress on issues of HUGE significance. So the people that think Trump is abusing his power should take a long look in the mirror and wonder why ANY president should be able to have so much authority - it should be near irrelevant who the president is. The government as a whole has grown excessively bureaucratic, and the scope of the federal government has grown FAR too large. The Dept of Education is a perfect example. No Child Left Behind has done extensive damage to the quality of education in this country (hand-in-hand with standardized testing & funding being tied to them), and there's absolutely no reason the federal government should be able to mandate what foods can & can't be served in a school lunch room. Then we could delve into the issue of government guaranteed student loans... The DOE has done infinitely more harm than good, and that case could be made for nearly every department at the federal government.

 

And finally, regarding the lack of faith in the intelligence agencies and other institutions, do you really feel that people feel that way because of Trump?... Even after the intelligence agencies lied about WMDs in the middle east so people would support going to war? Even seeing how federal courts, universities, and intelligence agencies have become infiltrated with leftist ideologues? I know that convo could get into the weeds quickly.... 

 

I just absolutely don't see Trump as the source of the problems - he's merely a result, and his election is a statement by much of the population that's fed up with career politicians, the political establishment, political correctness, and the overreaching nature of the government at-large (and also that people would rather vote for a guy who's being accused by 20 women of sexual assault than Hillary Clinton :lol:). 

 

I'm interested to hear your thoughts, BRB

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2 minutes ago, ActualCornHusker said:

Interesting input for sure. Question regarding mainstream media: What percentage of the "news" that's reported on Fox, MSNBC, CNN, ABC, CBS, etc do you feel is actually credible news with verified sources of information without being spun to fit a narrative? I don't need Donald Trump to say anything for me to know that the percentage of actual legitimate reporting is EXTREMELY low... That's irresponsible at best & more likely outright crooked in my view. I'd be interested in what you think on that.

I read this paragraph and stopped here to respond.  I will finish reading and respond accordingly.

 

The question you pose in this paragraph isn't as simple as it seems.  And....from your posts in the past, I believe there is a misconception about where the line is between news and opinion.  Even in your first sentence, it's cloudy.  

 

If I go on Foxnews or CNN's website, there are lots of articles that aren't sensationalized about various things going on around the world.  It's not Hannity or Don Lemmon writing them after getting off the phone with Obama or Trump telling them what to say.  When I just went on Foxnews website, I found lots of articles like this. However, the general design of the site and which articles are front and center, appear to all be decided by Hannity.  You actually have to search through a lot of crap to find them.  It's clear by the design of their website, they are really pushing support for Trump and trying to sell everyone on how wacko liberals are.

 

Now, when I just went to CNN, I don't see that.  I see a very large percentage of the articles that are fact based and specifically telling what is happening in the world.  


Here's another big difference between the two.  When I go on Fox News, I immediately find at least two articles trashing other networks.  They are front and center when you open the site.  When I open CNN, I specifically took about 3-4 minutes scanning through the headlines and never saw another network mentioned.  

The entire myth that Main Stream Media is fake has been propagated by one side and for the most part, is a myth.  

 

So, on their websites, one is crowded by a bunch of BS.  The other is pretty well fact based.

 

Now, if I go on both networks in the evening?  They are both pretty bad.  This is where it gets cloudy.  That's not "news".  That's "opinion".  Problem is, way too much of America doesn't understand the difference.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, ActualCornHusker said:

the media presents it as Russia trying to influence our election in favor of Trump, but that's not what happened in 2016

 

That is exactly what happened.   Putin said he wanted Trump, the Russians interfered...   ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Quote

 

Russian President Vladimir Putin said Monday he wanted President Donald Trump to win the 2016 election because he believed Trump's policies would be more friendly to the Kremlin.

 

"Yes, I did. Yes, I did. Because he talked about bringing the U.S.-Russia relationship back to normal,” Putin said, standing alongside Trump at a joint news conference.

 

 

 

16 minutes ago, ActualCornHusker said:

So the people that think Trump is abusing his power should take a long look in the mirror and wonder why ANY president should be able to have so much authority

 

These things are not mutually exclusive. One can think no president should have so much authority and at the same time expect Trump to face ramifications for abuse of power. 

 

17 minutes ago, ActualCornHusker said:

there's absolutely no reason the federal government should be able to mandate what foods can & can't be served in a school lunch room

 

I'm curious who you think should do that. Each state? Private enterprise?

 

17 minutes ago, ActualCornHusker said:

And finally, regarding the lack of faith in the intelligence agencies and other institutions, do you really feel that people feel that way because of Trump?

 

Yes. He's spilled a lot of (digital) ink attacking the intelligence community. You cannot simply discount that because they've made errors (or outright lied) in certain circumstances.

 

19 minutes ago, ActualCornHusker said:

I just absolutely don't see Trump as the source of the problems

 

Where you're getting pushback is that it seems like you don't want Trump to face the consequences of his actions.  Trump is not the source of ALL of the problems government has, but he is certainly guilty of some of them, and for the things he's guilty of he should pay the penalty.  I would presume all citizens interested in law and order would agree with that.

 

21 minutes ago, ActualCornHusker said:

his election is a statement by much of the population that's fed up with career politicians, the political establishment, political correctness, and the overreaching nature of the government at-large

 

Electing Trump fixed none of those problems, though. Career politicians dominate both houses of congress, and litter the Trump administration.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, knapplc said:

 

That is exactly what happened.   Putin said he wanted Trump, the Russians interfered...   ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

These things are not mutually exclusive. One can think no president should have so much authority and at the same time expect Trump to face ramifications for abuse of power. 

 

That quote that you reference means nothing. So Putin knew that Trump wanted peace while Hillary is a known war-hawk... How dare he prefer the guy that wants peace.

 

4 minutes ago, knapplc said:

 

I'm curious who you think should do that. Each state? Private enterprise?

 

How about the parents who decide every day what they feed their children? :dunno

 

4 minutes ago, knapplc said:

Electing Trump fixed none of those problems, though. Career politicians dominate both houses of congress, and litter the Trump administration.

 

 

 

You're right, which is the largest disappointment for me personally. He's repealed a fair amount of regulations, but he has also spent a sh*tload more money, which is the opposite of what he campaigned on.

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20 minutes ago, ActualCornHusker said:

As far as social media, yes, there are definitely foreign parties that create fake posts with the intention to stir people up and divide them - Russia is undoubtedly a BIG part of that. And again, the media presents it as Russia trying to influence our election in favor of Trump, but that's not what happened in 2016. It was to create outrage among extremists on both right and left. Other than that, it's mostly boomers like my aunt that share anything that comes across their feed and confirms their viewpoint, without any verification of that info (side note: I always find it funny when in the course of a few hours, she'll share a post blasting socialist programs and another post praising social security). But that's a really tough spot also. I personally don't want Washington or Silicon Valley to determine what's "real news" and decide for me what I can see on my feed. There's got to be ways to combat that other than censorship. It's already an issue on platforms like Youtube and Facebook, and they haven't really done much yet.

 

You just opposed everything every intelligence agency in America has said about it.  I will take their statements over yours.

 

Now, you are correct, they have worked to stir up division on both sides in the past.  But, that's not what happened in the election.


Two prime examples of this is:

 

a)  Protests in Ferguson.  These were peaceful protests until people from not in those communities came in and changed that.  There have been reports that this was in large part influenced by people outside out country (Russia).  Russia then promoted the idea openly that America is in racial turmoil. LINK

 

Quote

In a catchy headline this week Pravda.ru, a Russian news website, described Ferguson police as “the Ku Klux Klan dressed up as law enforcers”. Even though US media and social networks are controlled by the state, the report claimed, “it’s impossible to hide that the country is mortally ill with racism”.


b)  Charlottesville Unite The Right march.  LINK  Russia stirred the pot there till it boiled over.  

 

They are actively stirring the race pot and the Alt Right have latched onto it.  


But, back to 2016, every single intelligence agency has said Russia specifically worked to support Trump in that election.  They were very one sided.

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18 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

I read this paragraph and stopped here to respond.  I will finish reading and respond accordingly.

 

The question you pose in this paragraph isn't as simple as it seems.  And....from your posts in the past, I believe there is a misconception about where the line is between news and opinion.  Even in your first sentence, it's cloudy.  

 

If I go on Foxnews or CNN's website, there are lots of articles that aren't sensationalized about various things going on around the world.  It's not Hannity or Don Lemmon writing them after getting off the phone with Obama or Trump telling them what to say.  When I just went on Foxnews website, I found lots of articles like this. However, the general design of the site and which articles are front and center, appear to all be decided by Hannity.  You actually have to search through a lot of crap to find them.  It's clear by the design of their website, they are really pushing support for Trump and trying to sell everyone on how wacko liberals are.

 

Now, when I just went to CNN, I don't see that.  I see a very large percentage of the articles that are fact based and specifically telling what is happening in the world.  


Here's another big difference between the two.  When I go on Fox News, I immediately find at least two articles trashing other networks.  They are front and center when you open the site.  When I open CNN, I specifically took about 3-4 minutes scanning through the headlines and never saw another network mentioned.  

The entire myth that Main Stream Media is fake has been propagated by one side and for the most part, is a myth.  

 

So, on their websites, one is crowded by a bunch of BS.  The other is pretty well fact based.

 

Now, if I go on both networks in the evening?  They are both pretty bad.  This is where it gets cloudy.  That's not "news".  That's "opinion".  Problem is, way too much of America doesn't understand the difference.

 

 

 

Articles from these sources aren't credible either, but I agree with everything else you're saying.

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2 minutes ago, ActualCornHusker said:

That quote that you reference means nothing. So Putin knew that Trump wanted peace while Hillary is a known war-hawk... How dare he prefer the guy that wants peace.

 

There is far more evidence that Trump is a Putin stooge.  Claiming Putin is afraid of Hillary being a "warhawk" is meaningless. Putin needed someone to further his interest around the globe and he found it in Trump.

 

Putin's intelligence team interfered with our election, Putin overtly stated he preferred Trump, Trump's policies have opened the door for Putin to further his interest in Ukraine and Syria, Trump has driven wedges into NATO, Trump has met with Putin behind closed doors with no witnesses what? Four times?

 

If any Liberal had done any one of the things in the above paragraph, right-wing America would have had a collective coronary.  Trump is not providing "peace," he's kowtowing to our greatest enemy. 

 

5 minutes ago, ActualCornHusker said:

How about the parents who decide every day what they feed their children? :dunno

 

That doesn't work in today's world. A collective meal offered by trained cooks is the simplest, most efficient way to feed children at school. The most cost-effective, too.

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39 minutes ago, ActualCornHusker said:

Say what you want about the framers of the constitution, but our constitution is a masterpiece in regards to historical observation of the inevitable slide toward tyranny that ALL governments are subject to. The governmental structure that was set up 250ish years ago was to ensure that the executive branch doesn't have too much power. Over the past hundred years or so (probably longer) we've seen that balance of power erode gradually to the point where the president can use an executive order and bypass congress on issues of HUGE significance.

 

This part made me think about this.  

 

LINK

 

 

Quote

 

In an appearance on Fox News Monday evening, lawyer and author Alan Dershowitz compared President Donald Trump to a monarch while speaking about the controversy regarding former White House Counsel Don McGahn's subpoena to testify before House impeachment investigators.

"[Judge Brown] went nuts, talking about how the president's not the king. Of course the president's not the king; the president's far more powerful than the king," he said. "The president has the power that kings have never had."Dershowitz gave a basic explanation of the requirements for impeachment. "He has a very, very powerful office, and the framers wanted it that way. That's why they required for impeachment very strict criteria to be met," he explained.

 

 

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44 minutes ago, ActualCornHusker said:

The Dept of Education is a perfect example. No Child Left Behind has done extensive damage to the quality of education in this country (hand-in-hand with standardized testing & funding being tied to them), and there's absolutely no reason the federal government should be able to mandate what foods can & can't be served in a school lunch room. Then we could delve into the issue of government guaranteed student loans... The DOE has done infinitely more harm than good, and that case could be made for nearly every department at the federal government.

This is nothing more than a right wing talking point.  Was No Child Left Behind a mistake?  Yes.  Did it destroy the fabric of America like the right wing wants you to believe?  no.

 

And...the DOE could improve on what they are doing.  But, they don't deserve the attacks from the right that they get either.  

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