3/4 vs Base D

[Mavric]

On 12/12/2019 at 3:28 PM, The Dude said:

Banker ran a 4-3 and was quite a bit better than Chinander.

 

Eh, that's not really the case.  Banker benefitted from playing some offenses that were quite a bit worse.  He was historically poor in his first year.  Pretty decent in his second year.  But he also took a pretty good defense from the year before and made it historically poor.

 

Chin took a historically horrific defense and made it below average in his first year.  But he didn't improve much his second year.

 

At best it's a wash.  When you look at what they inherited, Chin has done quite a bit better.

[The Dude]

30th in the nation vs 66th in the nation is hardly a wash.  Banker wasn't good by any stretch of the imagination but Chinander is significantly worse.

[84HuskerLaw]

The more I ponder this topic the less I think I understand I guess.  I think I understand offense (schemes, strategy, formations, play sequencing, etc etc).   But, in my overly simplistic view, it seems to me the difference between the 3-4, the 4-3 and 5-2 (the Huskers' base defense from decades ago, is fairly insignfiicant.  It basically comes down to where the various defenders are actually lined up at about the time the ball is snapped.

 

DTs:  From the snap, D tackles job is to clog things up at the line of scrimmage and occupy as many O linemen/blockers as they can and if they're really good, make a few tackles near the line of scrimmage.  Now and then, a D lineman will bust through and make a TFL or sack the QB!  Stuff the inside runs and push the pocket toward the QB if he drops back to pass.  Strong, weighty, quick.  Often a little 'stubby' (6-2 and 305 lbs might be my ideal).

DEs:  Primarily to rush the passer from either side and turn the outside running plays inside and make tackles near or behind the line of scrimmage.  Nothing is toget outside of them.  They force the QB to pitch or keep in option actions and expect help on the RBs who get a pitch from the QB.  Quick, strong arms, good balance, tenancious, tough.  6-4 260 types but must have speed more than power imo.

MLBs:   Run stuffers who primarily focus on reading and attacking the RBs who attempt to run inside the tackles.  They are primary tacklers in the runs between the tackles.  Need size and strength and decent quickness to shed blocks from FBs and linemen who lead the way for the ball carriers.  6-3 245 is a nice size for them - quick and tough.

OLBs:  They too are to be tackling machines that will worry more about RBs who attack inside or outside the offensive tackles and outside runs.  The  RB and or TEs who become pass receivers are often their responsibility as well.  6-3 230 and run 4.7 in the 40 or faster.  Sacrifice size to get speed if need be -- the overgrown safety works well in some cases.

 

The most important thing is that each player know and carry out his responsibiliites instinctively and be aggressive tacklers that shed blocks and hold their ground and or rush the line of scrimmage under control with eyes wide open and alert.  They all need to defend their own turf areas and not get lost.

 

The DBs and Safeties need to cover well and be good open field tacklers and they need to be amongst the fastest players on the field with great quickness and loads of self confidence.

 

Ultimately, the alignment (5-2 vs 4-3 vs 3-4) before the snap is maybe not so important as the players who fill the positions.  They need the right skills, size, attitude and controlled aggression.   Gang tackling is the surest sign of an aggressive defense that will play well enough to help a team win the game.

 

Now if the experts want to enlighten me on things I have wrong or am missing, please do so.    

 

[GBRFAN]

10 hours ago, The Dude said:

30th in the nation vs 66th in the nation is hardly a wash.  Banker wasn't good by any stretch of the imagination but Chinander is significantly worse.

I didn't know they had rankings for DC's or are you just ranking the staff strictly on their players results? If so are we also going back to the theory that the world is flat?

[lo country]

Scheme and coaching puts players in position to succeed.  Horses make the schemes work.....I think we are still at the point in Frost's tenure where we are in need of both.  I think he is inexperienced as a HC.  His staff is pretty inexperienced as well. Our worst defensive position IMHO, that really makes the 3-4 hum....LB's....ILB was coached by a 1st year coach in Ruud...And it showed.  Game after game after game.....Hoping that the staff gets some outside help to see what/how to improve with what you have.  Not with what you want.  I'd reach out to Urbs.  He seemed to do ok while in the B1G.  Get him to look at scheme, play calling etc....Reach out to TO. See what he would do (within Frosts vision) on O.....Players or not, what we are currently doing does not look like a blue print for success.  

[TheSker]

8 minutes ago, lo country said:

Scheme and coaching puts players in position to succeed.  Horses make the schemes work.....I think we are still at the point in Frost's tenure where we are in need of both.  I think he is inexperienced as a HC.  His staff is pretty inexperienced as well. Our worst defensive position IMHO, that really makes the 3-4 hum....LB's....ILB was coached by a 1st year coach in Ruud...And it showed.  Game after game after game.....Hoping that the staff gets some outside help to see what/how to improve with what you have.  Not with what you want.  I'd reach out to Urbs.  He seemed to do ok while in the B1G.  Get him to look at scheme, play calling etc....Reach out to TO. See what he would do (within Frosts vision) on O.....Players or not, what we are currently doing does not look like a blue print for success.  

I don't understand posts like these.....that make it sound like Frost is a cavalier coach who doesn't really have an idea what he's doing.

 

First, you realize that Osborne is a frequent visitor to the football offices, right?

 

Frost doesn't need to reach out to him....he's already right there.  Safe to assume Osborne has a really good idea, along with Moos and Green, of Frost's plan.

 

Ironically it has a lot of similarities to Osborne's plan.

 

The product on the field was below expectations last season, for a variety of reasons.

 

As Frost continues to upgrade the talent level, the calls on both sides of the ball will look brilliant.

 

And it won't be because the basics of the playcalling or the scheme are different.....it'll be because the more talented players can execute.

[lo country]

2 hours ago, TheSker said:

I don't understand posts like these.....that make it sound like Frost is a cavalier coach who doesn't really have an idea what he's doing.

 

First, you realize that Osborne is a frequent visitor to the football offices, right?

 

Frost doesn't need to reach out to him....he's already right there.  Safe to assume Osborne has a really good idea, along with Moos and Green, of Frost's plan.

 

Ironically it has a lot of similarities to Osborne's plan.

 

The product on the field was below expectations last season, for a variety of reasons.

 

As Frost continues to upgrade the talent level, the calls on both sides of the ball will look brilliant.

 

And it won't be because the basics of the playcalling or the scheme are different.....it'll be because the more talented players can execute.

Not at all..... He has just finished year four of being a HC.  His 4 year record shows he needs to improve.  And if you or anyone else can't see that, I've got nothing for y'all.  

 

I want Frost to succeed.  

NU needs Frost to succeed.

Nebraska needs Frost to succeed.

 

But the blind following, excuse making , blaming everyone but the staff confuses me. It doesn't make me (or anyone else) any more or less of a fan because we question the staff and their decisions......

 

I do not see a coach that is playing chess.  I do not see a coach who schemes too and/or against the strengths of teams we play.  I routinely see coaches out scheme and out coach ours....That is a knock on Frost and Co, BUT it is also an acknowledgement that Frost has to grow as a coach.  It is rarified air for a coach to come in and win from the jump.  Can Frost be the next Dabo?  I don't know. I think he can.  I hope he can.

 

Who really knows if Frost is getting advise from TO.  He needs to. In a bad way.  BUT TO was a genius.  He could flip the script of a game in a matter of plays. Change on the fly offensively like no coach I have seen.  That is a talent.  A gift.  I do not think it can be replicated, but I think some of "what to do/look for" can be taught and learned.  Then again, maybe everyone on the team not recruited by Frost and Co truly suck.  The worst players ever recruited who quit, have no idea how to win and have no pride......Guys truly incapable of beating a team with a winning record.  

 

He inherited a mess.  He is recruiting lights out.  He is saying the right things....Only time will tell if he can right this ship.   For me, after year 2, with all of the statements, excuses, roster flip etc my excitement and expectations have been tempered.  I can see us next year at a low of 3-9.....hoping for a 7-5....Until Frost PROVES he can win, I will have doubts.  

[TheSker]

10 minutes ago, lo country said:

But the blind following, excuse making , blaming everyone but the staff confuses me.

This is a complete exaggeration of what is happening.

 

Blind following is a weird term, but Frost is being supported because he HAS done it.  If it's discounted by some because it was the AAC, so be it.

 

And I'd offer a very good guess as to what Urban Meyer might tell Frost 

 

I think he'd say he needs more talent.

 

Everything I've heard from Meyer is he likes Frost's schemes.

[TheBigRed1]

5 hours ago, TheSker said:

This is a complete exaggeration of what is happening.

 

Blind following is a weird term, but Frost is being supported because he HAS done it.  If it's discounted by some because it was the AAC, so be it.

 

And I'd offer a very good guess as to what Urban Meyer might tell Frost 

 

I think he'd say he needs more talent.

 

Everything I've heard from Meyer is he likes Frost's schemes.

I believe it was last year someone posted a video of a couple of Michigan guys who were breaking down Frost's  schemes and, iirc, were pissed off that, according to them, they were going to have to deal with Frost's schemes more than Ohio St as we would be on their schedule more than we were on Ohio St's schedule from year to yea(seems the opposite at this point).  Their conclusion was that Frost's scheme was going to be particularly hard to deal with. 

 

Now unlike some, or many, I believe we have the talent, not the best but we have good talent, some really good. The only thing is they haven't been in this scheme for 3 to 4 years, the main thing being the OL.  The juniors, soph, rs fresh have only been in it 2 years, some playing as has been noted out of position, ie, Forniak, out of necessity.  Some skill position players can come in and catch on right away, some can't. Give this 3 to 4 years and it will be hard for younger guys to come in and start because the juniors and seniors will be well versed in the scheme and I believe we will start seeing our expectations fulfilled. I am mostly speaking to the OL situation and that is where the game is won or lost. 

 

Expect to see sort of the same thing on the defensive side of the ball.  When the offense gets rolling I suspect Chins will start dialing up a lot more pressure not that he shouldn't have been doing that already.

 

 

[The Dude]

12 hours ago, GBRFAN said:

I didn't know they had rankings for DC's or are you just ranking the staff strictly on their players results? If so are we also going back to the theory that the world is flat?

Defensive rankings in both DCs second year when they both had their systems installed.

[madrat]

I keep reading 'guys playing out of position out of necessity'.  This simply is not true.  The guard position is higher priority than filling the tackle position.  Just like the center position is higher priority than the guard position.  Yet we put a guard at tackle and a total experiment at center.  Neither was even middle of the pack effective in the B1G.  Farniok was wasted at tackle and the only guy that probably missed more blocks was Jurgens.  This was a coach putting the priorities in the wrong order problem.

[TheSker]

6 hours ago, The Dude said:

Defensive rankings in both DCs second year when they both had their systems installed.

If only it was just getting a system installed that makes a defense good......