The P&R Plague Thread (Covid-19)

[BigRedBuster]

 

 

[DevoHusker]

19 minutes ago, funhusker said:

That's reassuring for your family, I'm sure.  But that just means these measures aren't meant to protect you then.  You could still carry the virus (and most likely live) but give it to a couple people (who also will most likely live) then they give it to 20 more (they'll most likely live). But one of those people might work in a retirement home, the 5 people they give it to have a far less chance to live.

 

I wish our leaders would do a better job of explaining things.  We aren't staying at home to keep everyone alive.  We aren't wearing masks to prevent ourselves from becoming sick.  People tend to get pissed off because they don't understand the reasoning, and I don't really blame them.  They goal is to "minimize" spread so hospitals don't get overwhelmed and as few of the at risk population die as possible.  The masks are meant to be a barrier between "your" potential germs and other healthy people.  I laugh at the people who think wearing a mask is an attack on their freedom, but they still cover their mouth when they sneeze...

 

My son prescribes to the theory that we/they got things backwards from the start:

 

quarantine the sick

protect/isolate the vulnerable

social distance for day to day activity for the rest of us 

[jaws]

19 minutes ago, funhusker said:

That's reassuring for your family, I'm sure.  But that just means these measures aren't meant to protect you then.  You could still carry the virus (and most likely live) but give it to a couple people (who also will most likely live) then they give it to 20 more (they'll most likely live). But one of those people might work in a retirement home, the 5 people they give it to have a far less chance to live.

 

I wish our leaders would do a better job of explaining things.  We aren't staying at home to keep everyone alive.  We aren't wearing masks to prevent ourselves from becoming sick.  People tend to get pissed off because they don't understand the reasoning, and I don't really blame them.  They goal is to "minimize" spread so hospitals don't get overwhelmed and as few of the at risk population die as possible.  The masks are meant to be a barrier between "your" potential germs and other healthy people.  I laugh at the people who think wearing a mask is an attack on their freedom, but they still cover their mouth when they sneeze...

 

I am sorry, but I am not sure why you are quoting me. I wear a mask in public and I don't have a problem doing it. I also wash my hands regularly and stay at least 6 feet away from people that aren't in my household. Depending on the situation I may stay even further away from people. When I do need to go to work, I have a job in IT, I try and stay in my office or away from others. I don't see this as a threat to my liberty in anyway. I just don't see any similarities to the situation at hand and the picture that was posted. Thanks for the education, I guess.

[knapplc]

5 minutes ago, DevoHusker said:

 

My son prescribes to the theory that we/they got things backwards from the start:

 

quarantine the sick

protect/isolate the vulnerable

social distance for day to day activity for the rest of us 

 

This is, maybe, where we're going to have to go with this eventually. I'd love to live risk-free from Covid until there's a vaccine, but who's to say there's ever a vaccine? We can't stay isolated forever.

[funhusker]

18 minutes ago, jaws said:

 

I am sorry, but I am not sure why you are quoting me. I wear a mask in public and I don't have a problem doing it. I also wash my hands regularly and stay at least 6 feet away from people that aren't in my household. Depending on the situation I may stay even further away from people. When I do need to go to work, I have a job in IT, I try and stay in my office or away from others. I don't see this as a threat to my liberty in anyway. I just don't see any similarities to the situation at hand and the picture that was posted. Thanks for the education, I guess.

I quoted you because you framed the @BigRedBuster's picture around you not dying if you contracted the virus.  Kudos to being responsible; I mean that seriously.

[funhusker]

22 minutes ago, DevoHusker said:

 

My son prescribes to the theory that we/they got things backwards from the start:

 

quarantine the sick

protect/isolate the vulnerable

social distance for day to day activity for the rest of us 

I would agree with that.  But the people in charge have not even remotely begun to put a system like that into place.  The fact that we are splitting into "sides" over this is a testament to how poorly the messaging has been from the top.

[BigRedBuster]

11 minutes ago, knapplc said:

 

This is, maybe, where we're going to have to go with this eventually. I'd love to live risk-free from Covid until there's a vaccine, but who's to say there's ever a vaccine? We can't stay isolated forever.

I have no doubt this is where we are going.  That doesn't mean what we have done is wrong.  (and I'm not saying you disagree with that).  

 

I just had an experience that is still pissing me off.  We have signs all over at every door stating visitors are not allowed in our facility without a prearranged appointment.  And, so far, those haven't even been allowed unless it's absolutely necessary.  Truck drivers are not allowed in the shipping office even. 

So, I'm sitting in my office and I hear a guy that retired a few years ago come in.  He's your typical loud blowhard that love coming in and saying hi to everyone.  Well, he walked through the door and yells, "f#&% COVID" and proceedes to go through the office looking for people to say hi.  He comes into my office and I flat out tell him he's not supposed to be here and he needs to leave.  He looks at me like I'm some crazy idiot and storms out.  He's the type of guy that I'm sure thinks this is all a bunch of crazy scared people panicking and HE'S not going to listen to anyone.

 

THIS is what people will need to realize moving forward.  There will be places they can go and some places they can't.  Each business and facility will have it's rules as to who can come in and who can't and people need to respect them.  

 

I know I'm going to see this guy somewhere in public and he's the type of guy that will make a big deal about this in front of everyone.

 

Man that pisses me off.

[NUance]

5 hours ago, Red Five said:

If a hospice cancer patient gets hit by a car walking across the street and dies, should that death be classified as getting hit by a car or cancer? 

In your example, if she had COVID and it accelerated her death over what normally would have happened, then yes, it is a COVID death.  And COVID has been shown to have heart complications, as it chokes the oxygen in the blood causing the heart to have to pump harder to get more oxygen rich blood circulated throughout the body. 

 

This is comparing apples to oranges since (presumably) the car would have killed her anyway.  A better example would be pneumonia.  Quite a few patients with serious illnesses have pneumonia at their end stage.  Was it the pneumonia that killed them, or the underlying disease?  Do hospitals record the cause of death as a pneumonia death?  

 

But the real point I made in that status that apparently got your goat is that, while I suspect there is some under-reporting of Covid-19 deaths, I'd guess there's probably even more over-reporting.  Any time there's money involved it skews the statistics.  If hospitals are getting additional funds for Covid-19 deaths, then the numbers will be inflated somewhat.  We may never end up with accurate counts of the Covid-19 deaths--except for the comparison with normal death rate statistics.  And even those will be affected somewhat by the shutdown and alteration of normal activities for the past couple of months.   

 

[ZRod]

54 minutes ago, DevoHusker said:

 

My son prescribes to the theory that we/they got things backwards from the start:

 

quarantine the sick

protect/isolate the vulnerable

social distance for day to day activity for the rest of us 

That's exactly how this should have been handled in January. We're way to far down the road to do that now, and we never had enough tasking to make it feasible. We should have had mass testing to identify infected people, isloate them and track people who they were in contact with and have them quarantine for a time.

[BigRedBuster]

15 minutes ago, NUance said:

Any time there's money involved it skews the statistics.

How is money affecting the reporting?

[RedDenver]

13 minutes ago, NUance said:

 

This is comparing apples to oranges since (presumably) the car would have killed her anyway.  A better example would be pneumonia.  Quite a few patients with serious illnesses have pneumonia at their end stage.  Was it the pneumonia that killed them, or the underlying disease?  Do hospitals record the cause of death as a pneumonia death?  

 

But the real point I made in that status that apparently got your goat is that, while I suspect there is some under-reporting of Covid-19 deaths, I'd guess there's probably even more over-reporting.  Any time there's money involved it skews the statistics.  If hospitals are getting additional funds for Covid-19 deaths, then the numbers will be inflated somewhat.  We may never end up with accurate counts of the Covid-19 deaths--except for the comparison with normal death rate statistics.  And even those will be affected somewhat by the shutdown and alteration of normal activities for the past couple of months.   

 

Except you haven't actually shown the money motivation for over-reporting. How much Medicare/Medicaid pays is not the same as profit.

 

Also, there's a ton of data showing that deaths are way up everywhere that covid-19 has hit hard, which is MORE than the number of covid-19 reported deaths.

[Moiraine]

56 minutes ago, knapplc said:

This is, maybe, where we're going to have to go with this eventually. I'd love to live risk-free from Covid until there's a vaccine, but who's to say there's ever a vaccine? We can't stay isolated forever.

 

 

There may never be a vaccine but we need time to build up our capacity to deal with this illness if it's a permanent part of our lives.

[Landlord]

54 minutes ago, NUance said:

A better example would be pneumonia.  Quite a few patients with serious illnesses have pneumonia at their end stage.  Was it the pneumonia that killed them, or the underlying disease?  Do hospitals record the cause of death as a pneumonia death?  

 

If a person has pneumonia, or colon cancer, or Alzheimer's, or a lot of other things, and then becomes positive for COVID-19 and dies, they have 100% died of Sepsis due to COVID-19. They had other co-morbidities, but the actual cause of death is still sepsis due to COVID-19. Their lives were shortened and ended due to this disease.

 

This is how "cause of death" is determined by physicians who complete a death certificate, not just for covid-19, but for all deaths.

 

 

54 minutes ago, NUance said:

Any time there's money involved it skews the statistics.  If hospitals are getting additional funds for Covid-19 deaths, 

 

 

They're not. Hospitals get medicare payments for medicare patients with cases of covid-19, they don't get more money if they die.

 

Edit: My  claim of how cause of death is determined isn't my own understanding, it's from a nurse/administrator/hospice case manager.

 

 

[Red Five]

1 hour ago, NUance said:

 

If hospitals are getting additional funds for Covid-19 deaths

 

 

You keep saying this, but it is simply not true.  Medicare pays hospitals the same amount for a COVID diagnosis of a Medicare patient if they survive or die in their care.  Their is no bonus/additional/extra funds for a COVID death.  Multiple posters have told you this multiple times.  Either you are just ignoring it out of ignorance or you can not read.

[knapplc]