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The P&R Plague Thread (Covid-19)


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1 hour ago, funhusker said:

This is what I find interesting.  Other democratic nations are going to a lot more extremes than we are in the U.S., but somehow people think we are living in a Nazi state just because we are asked (that's all the mandates are at his point) to wear a mask at the grocery store.  At least here in Nebraska.

 

It's funny how many Nebraskans brag about how tough they are but whine about wearing a mask or getting a shot.  Bunch of pansies! 

 

So we're to take solace in our country being less wrong, and mandate-y? I suppose. The masks don't bother me when it makes sense, or back when we thought it made sense to wear them. But still, it's not a big deal, so I'll play along when I'm asked to. 

 

There's definitely a "learn as you go" aspect to all this, so it's hard to be all that upset with the "science", but we know quite a bit now, and it's pretty clear that most of us overreacted to the pandemic. Understandable, unless we continue to play these stupid, detrimental games.

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4 hours ago, B.B. Hemingway said:

 

Thanks I think his opinion has some valid points.

 

 

“I mean, we’re in a very different place with Covid than we were just when I was on the air last time, and that is the vaccines, we know, do not prevent you from either transmitting it or getting the disease,” he said. “We know that. That’s a fact now. They just prevent you from dying, which is a great part of it, let’s not undercount that. But if they don’t prevent you from transmitting it and they don’t prevent you from getting it why are we still treating this disease the way we always have? And what the f#&% is the use of a booster shot? Because I will never get a booster shot.”

 

“Okay, I didn’t want the first vaccine. We should not treat people unfairly who want to allow their own immune system to take care of the situation,” Maher said. “But okay, I took one for the team. Now, they’re giving a fourth one in Israel with the booster shots.”

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14 minutes ago, admo said:

Thanks I think his opinion has some valid points.

 

 

“I mean, we’re in a very different place with Covid than we were just when I was on the air last time, and that is the vaccines, we know, do not prevent you from either transmitting it or getting the disease,” he said. “We know that. That’s a fact now. They just prevent you from dying, which is a great part of it, let’s not undercount that. But if they don’t prevent you from transmitting it and they don’t prevent you from getting it why are we still treating this disease the way we always have? And what the f#&% is the use of a booster shot? Because I will never get a booster shot.”

 

“Okay, I didn’t want the first vaccine. We should not treat people unfairly who want to allow their own immune system to take care of the situation,” Maher said. “But okay, I took one for the team. Now, they’re giving a fourth one in Israel with the booster shots.”

 

It's similar to the flu vaccine. What's the complaint here? That by getting vaccinated/boosted you have less of a chance of dying?

 

And that you should have the right to overwhelm the medical system because you won't wear a mask, get vaxxed or boosted?

 

This mindset makes no sense. These are easy, everyday things that people do. 

 

God help this country if we have another war. We'll roll over in a second, just as soon as making sacrifices becomes too hard for pampered Americans like Maher. 

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23 minutes ago, knapplc said:

God help this country if we have another war. We'll roll over in a second, just as soon as making sacrifices becomes too hard for pampered Americans like Maher. 

Is it not okay to question the measures being asked of us if they begin to make no sense?  Similarly, is it not okay to question why we're at war if the reasons given make no sense?  We've had experience with both fairly recently.

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3 minutes ago, Jason Sitoke said:

Is it not okay to question the measures being asked of us if they begin to make no sense?  Similarly, is it not okay to question why we're at war if the reasons given make no sense?  We've had experience with both fairly recently.

 

It's OK. It can be OK to question it and to be wrong, too.

 

But Maher isn't just questioning vaccines, he's saying he's done with them and he's influencing others not to get them, on the premise that they don't prevent spread and only mitigate harm. 

 

The Covid vaccine and booster make sense even if they don't prevent infection or spread, just like the flu vaccine. 

 

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16 minutes ago, knapplc said:

 

It's OK. It can be OK to question it and to be wrong, too.

 

But Maher isn't just questioning vaccines, he's saying he's done with them and he's influencing others not to get them, on the premise that they don't prevent spread and only mitigate harm. 

 

The Covid vaccine and booster make sense even if they don't prevent infection or spread, just like the flu vaccine. 

 

He's definitely expressing more vaccine hesitancy than I agree with.  COVID vaccine absolutely makes sense and has overwhelmingly been the primary factor for why different regions have had discernible death rates since Spring '21 in the US.  I do think there is still some conjecture about whether the existing boosters are needed, and overall whether they're particularly effective against Omicron.  New Orleans has a new requirement that children age 5-11 must be vaccinated to enter a restaurant.  I personally find it to be a ridiculous requirement, and ripe for ridicule...even by the most staunch pro-vax citizen.

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https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2022/01/new-data-show-booster-doses-protect-against-omicron

 

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Unvaccinated 5 times more likely to get Omicron

 

"During October–November, unvaccinated persons had 13.9 and 53.2 times the risks for infection and COVID-19–associated death, respectively, compared with fully vaccinated persons who received booster doses, and 4.0 and 12.7 times the risks compared with fully vaccinated persons without booster doses," the authors said.

 

When the Omicron variant emerged during December 2021, the authors wrote, case and death rates and incidence rate ratios decreased to 4.9 for fully vaccinated persons with booster doses, and 2.8 for those without booster doses.

 

The added benefit of boosters was especially significant among Americans aged 50 and older.

 

In the JAMA study, CDC researchers found that, among 70,155 tests from symptomatic adults with COVID-like illness conducted from Dec 10, 2021 to Jan 1, 2022, receipt of three mRNA vaccine doses was reported in 2,441 Omicron patients (18.6%), 679 Delta patients (6.6%), and 18,587 of those who weren't infected (39.7%). With two mRNA doses, the percentages were much higher: 55.3%, 44.4%, and 41.6%, respectively.

 

Compared with being unvaccinated, the odds of contracting Omicron after receiving three vaccine doses fell 67%, and for Delta the risk declined 93%, the data reveal.

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Scarlet said:

At what point are you vaccinated 'enough' to have lessened the burden on PUBLIC health?  That is the question.  Personally, yes a 3rd booster does better.  Israel found that even a 4th shot improves your immune response, but 'marginally'.  Once you've taken reasonable measures to avoid being hospitalized, the rest is up to you personally, and how risk tolerant you are.  It is not vaxxed-but-not-boosted people that are stressing the health care system. 

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1 hour ago, B.B. Hemingway said:

 

 

There's definitely a "learn as you go" aspect to all this, so it's hard to be all that upset with the "science", but we know quite a bit now, and it's pretty clear that most of us overreacted to the pandemic. Understandable, unless we continue to play these stupid, detrimental games.

 

Did we really over-react? Like, the whole globe full of humanity?  Why is "science" in quotes?

 

IIRC, anyone who predicted 850,000 U.S. Covid deaths was accused of fear-mongering. COVID went from being non-existent to the #3 cause of death in the U.S. within months.

 

The part where hospital beds filled up with Covid patients, taxed the entire healthcare system, and still threatens staffing and non-Covid treatments?

 

That happened, too. It's still happening. 

 

Yes, there's a learn-as-you-go to this, and perhaps the most unfortunate fall-out was school kids. As a rule we always err on the side of safety with children, but the mental health aspect was considerable, as many people acknowledge. There wasn't a unified approach and some people think that's a mistake. Others were never going to abide a local, state, or national mandate. 

 

Masks were never perfect, but they help. Don't know why that's so hard to swallow. Vaccinations and yes, Bill Maher, boosters help, too. Like, really really help. Huge difference. Tons of stats. Nobody is backpedling on that because there's no reason to.  

 

And of course one of the games being played is to pour all your mistrust of the government and especially your partisan leanings into declaring COVID an agenda driven boondoggle rather than an ever-evolving global pandemic. (Not you, necessarily. The collective "you")  What's interesting is how well the economy has survived what could have been much more disastrous. So far. 

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2 hours ago, Jason Sitoke said:

He's definitely expressing more vaccine hesitancy than I agree with.  COVID vaccine absolutely makes sense and has overwhelmingly been the primary factor for why different regions have had discernible death rates since Spring '21 in the US.  I do think there is still some conjecture about whether the existing boosters are needed, and overall whether they're particularly effective against Omicron.  New Orleans has a new requirement that children age 5-11 must be vaccinated to enter a restaurant.  I personally find it to be a ridiculous requirement, and ripe for ridicule...even by the most staunch pro-vax citizen.

You have captured everything I believe also with this post.  

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2 hours ago, Jason Sitoke said:

At what point are you vaccinated 'enough' to have lessened the burden on PUBLIC health?  That is the question.  Personally, yes a 3rd booster does better.  Israel found that even a 4th shot improves your immune response, but 'marginally'.  Once you've taken reasonable measures to avoid being hospitalized, the rest is up to you personally, and how risk tolerant you are.  It is not vaxxed-but-not-boosted people that are stressing the health care system. 

That's a question that will be hanging out there for awhile for a number of reasons.  I posted the link you responded to to dispel Maher's notion the boosters are worthless.  They are not worthless.

 

Here's another study.  

 

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2022/01/no-omicron-immunity-without-booster-study-finds/

 

Quote

The blood samples were used to measure how effectively each vaccine induces production of protective immunity in the form of antibodies against the Omicron pseudovirus, as well as the Delta and wild type viruses. The results were striking. “We detected very little neutralization of the Omicron variant pseudovirus when we used samples taken from people who were recently vaccinated with two doses of mRNA vaccine or one dose of Johnson & Johnson,” says Balazs. “But individuals who received three doses of mRNA vaccine had very significant neutralization against the Omicron variant.”

 

Now possibly T and B cells are nearly as effective with two doses as with three against omicron and that's two dose vaxxed are not dying like the unvaxxed.  But Maher doesn't know that.  I do know that the history of this pandemic has show that those that want to "do their own research" haven't faired nearly as well as those that have stuck to listening to credible scientists.  

 

How many vaxs are going to be needed?  I don't know.  Would Maher stop the Hep B series, or the rabies series at two?  Evidently.  Would he be adequately protected?  Doubtful.  

 

I'm also trying to wrap my head around the logic of a guy who already had two doses but is now hesitant about the booster.  He almost makes a full-blown antivaxxer seem sensible in comparison.  

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More evidence in this thread that boosters are not worthless.  Far from it 

 

Quote

study found that during the omicron surge a booster dose was 90% effective at preventing hospitalization, compared with just 57% for those who had received two shots and were at least six months, out from the second dose.

 

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4 hours ago, knapplc said:

 

It's similar to the flu vaccine. What's the complaint here? That by getting vaccinated/boosted you have less of a chance of dying?

 

And that you should have the right to overwhelm the medical system because you won't wear a mask, get vaxxed or boosted?

 

This mindset makes no sense. These are easy, everyday things that people do. 

 

God help this country if we have another war. We'll roll over in a second, just as soon as making sacrifices becomes too hard for pampered Americans like Maher. 

Sir, you took his opinion about a booster.... and brought up masks, overwhelming the medical system, War,  and making sacrifices. :huh:

 

We are simply discussing a booster shot(s)

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I only put this here because this particular use of a Nazi comparison is COVID mandate related. Let me just say that I am very sick of Nazi comparisons. They have been misused from both sides of the isle for almost 2 decades now. I just roll my eyes and think that people throw it out there for shock value. Eventually it will be misused enough that it will have zero shock value.
 

https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/24/politics/robert-kennedy-jr-anti-vaccine-nazis-what-matters/index.html

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