Tribalism and the Truth

[BigRedBuster]

I was asked to start a separate thread on this.

 

 

 

I believe this is something that all of us have fallen into at some point in time.  This article is pretty powerful.

 

The message I like is the fact that we all get into groups of people who think like us and it makes us more "radical" than we previously were.  

 

What we all constantly need to ask ourselves is, why?  Why do I believe the way I do and are we being influenced by the people around us to support something we shouldn't support?

[TGHusker]

Thanks BRB - this is an important topic.  It goes way beyond the Cult of Trump issues.   The C.O.T. is just a current example of what this article is about.  It touches on the 'peer pressure' of the group, group think, group confirmation bias,  and generally the really bad idea of just  being around people who think like 'like me' all the time.  It also asks the question: What would I have done if I was growing up in the south during the time of slavery?    With history in our rear view mirror, it is easy to say what we would have done now but what if we had lived in that culture??  The author's ancestors fought for the South - would he had done the same?

 

It also speaks to something we harp about on HB - the sources we use to get our information.  We can spot a Rush only listener or a FoxNews only watcher.  They all walk and talk alike. But it isn't just on the 'right'.  It can happen to any of us along the whole length of the political spectrum.    It is healthy for us to read articles from center right to center left and try to avoid the extremes.  But to only read  only from your favorite conservative or favorite liberal sources, can add to our own bias and prevent us from growing.

 

https://frenchpress.thedispatch.com/p/theres-a-question-my-confederate

Some choice quotes below but I'll start wt one towards the end of the article which is vitally important:

 

Quote

 

The tidal pull of tribalism should humble us all. For many of us, it renders our virtue an accident of history and birth. For others, it gives our sin and vice a terrible momentum that’s so very hard to reverse. 

Time and again I go back to the triple admonitions of Micah 6:8—“He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God.” It’s a verse for all time, but it also seems especially appropriate at this time.

Seek justice, yes. In a polarized time, that’s the easy command. That’s the call to fight for what’s right. The next two commands, however, come much harder, but their imperative is easier to understand when we know the truth that our virtue is often accidental. Our vices are stubborn. I can be kind to men and women who are confronting their own history and circumstance. And I must be humble. I must. Even (and perhaps especially) when I feel most confident.

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

Let’s put the question differently. Looking realistically at human nature, at the tidal forces of tribe and history, and the immense fallibility of our own hearts, how would each of us answer this question: “If everyone around me is wrong, would I have the wisdom and courage to know and do what’s right?”

Quote

 

I’ve been thinking a great deal about the incredibly powerful pull of tribe over truth. I just last week finished the final edits of my new book, called Divided We Fall. The theme of the book is simple—our national divisions are growing so great that we cannot take for granted our continued national unity. I spend an extended amount of time talking about a sociological reality that is ripping our nation to shreds—the law of group polarization.

The concept comes from a Cass Sunstein academic paper, published all the way back in 1999. Surveying the relevant social science, Sunstein said, “n a striking empirical regularity, deliberation tends to move groups, and the individuals who compose them, toward a more extreme point in the direction indicated by their own predeliberation judgments.”

In plain English, this means that when like-minded people gather, their views get more extreme. Our arguments reinforce one another to such an extent that the entire group will sometimes become more extreme than the most extreme person at the start of the deliberation. Think of it like this—when gun rights advocates (or gun control activists) gather, do they tend to leave the meeting doubting their positions or redoubled in their commitment to advocacy? How many people leave a good Bible study loving Jesus less? 

 

Quote

 

It’s a nonpartisan, human phenomenon, and what’s so seductive about it is the fact that we can’t perceive the sheer tribalism because it’s accompanied by deliberation—by discussion and thought. We fool ourselves into believing our ideas or our intellects are in control when it is often our identity or our history. 

This doesn’t mean that group deliberation is always wrong. A collection of abolitionists who met and grew in dedication to the abolitionist cause in Boston in 1860 were right. Unquestionably they were right. But what it does mean is that like-minded group deliberation is suspect, and it can be suspect even in a righteous cause. “The ends justifies the means” is a concept born in unanimity and fervor

 

 

 

[Moiraine]

On 4/27/2020 at 2:19 PM, BigRedBuster said:

The message I like is the fact that we all get into groups of people who think like us and it makes us more "radical" than we previously were.  

 

What we all constantly need to ask ourselves is, why?  Why do I believe the way I do and are we being influenced by the people around us to support something we shouldn't support?

 

 

 

I can't understand party loyalty. It's ok to be loyal to a sports team because it's not important in the grand scheme of things. But why do people feel they need to defend the political party they belong to at all costs? Do they think it will somehow hurt them to admit the things their party does wrong? Do they think they lose something if they say what they like about a different political party? It's completely illogical to think millions of us are split into 2 groups and that we actually agree with everything about the group we belong in. No one would actually agree with everything their political party does if they would stop to truly think about it - a lot of people are just blinded into believing they do.

 

And I think we all lose because so many people are like this. It allows politicians to gain while the rest of us lose, and makes our country susceptible to corruption. All they have to do is trick us into hating the other and then we don't try to stop our "side" from doing the same corrupt bulls#!t we hate the other for.

 

[TGHusker]

14 hours ago, Moiraine said:

And I think we all lose because so many people are like this. It allows politicians to gain while the rest of us lose, and makes our country susceptible to corruption. All they have to do is trick us into hating the other and then we don't try to stop our "side" from doing the same corrupt bulls#!t we hate the other for.

Agree 100%.  The genius of political parties that create an 'us vs them' environment is that it keeps people trapped on the 2 different plantations.  Prolife people like myself, often think they have to vote GOP because the other side is painted by GOP insiders as evil, God deniers. So to go and vote Dem is like denial of one's faith.  I don't get Dem fund raising letters but I'm sure it goes the same way.   Thus this is how we end up wt 80% of evangelicals supporting Trump.  Indoctrination over decades means you can't vote for the 'after birth' prolife issues that the Dems support because most of those Dems are also pro-choice (GOP newsletters would say pro--abortion to make the meat even more red). 

[BigRedBuster]

15 hours ago, Moiraine said:

 

 

 

I can't understand party loyalty. It's ok to be loyal to a sports team because it's not important in the grand scheme of things. But why do people feel they need to defend the political party they belong to at all costs? Do they think it will somehow hurt them to admit the things their party does wrong? Do they think they lose something if they say what they like about a different political party? It's completely illogical to think millions of us are split into 2 groups and that we actually agree with everything about the group we belong in. No one would actually agree with everything their political party does if they would stop to truly think about it - a lot of people are just blinded into believing they do.

 

And I think we all lose because so many people are like this. It allows politicians to gain while the rest of us lose, and makes our country susceptible to corruption. All they have to do is trick us into hating the other and then we don't try to stop our "side" from doing the same corrupt bulls#!t we hate the other for.

 

It's like the entire issue is backwards.  The people need to be holding the party accountable by criticizing it when it's warranted.  Voters pushing back against wrong ideas or wrong things parties do is what make them change for the better.

What we have are parties who feed the voters crap to keep them in the fold.  Voters feel like they need to support the party similar to how they support their favorite football team and defend them at all cost.  People get offended if someone says something bad about "their party".

 

It's a sad situation.

[TGHusker]

This could also go in the 'Weird time to be a Christian' thread but thought it could fit here.  When Christian Never Trumpers speak out, there can be a backlash of pressure from others.    This story speaks to the issue of Tribalism.  Some of us reject the politics of Trump because he has wrongly defined Conservativism to Nationalism,  he has turned the GOP into a personal cult, and he has deceived many and I dare say led astray many in the church from their true mission - representing Christ and His kingdom.  The church in America has been stained by a man who opposes the immigrant while the Gospel tells us to care for the stranger in our midst, Trump speaks rudely of others every opportunity he gets, while Jesus tells us to be kind hearted, etc   I could go on and on.  We all know the inconsistencies. 

 Beginning of the article is quoted below. 

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/religious-never-trumpers-tougher-rest-123036001.html

 

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Conservative resistance to President Donald Trump comes at a price. But at least Never Trumpers in politics, such as the conservative operatives behind the Lincoln Project video that so enraged Trump this week, enjoy the praise of liberals and like-minded conservatives even as they are denied contracts with Republican campaigns and interest groups.

White conservative religious leaders who resist the charms of MAGA face similar perils, with little of the upside. Trump’s approval rating among white evangelical Protestants has been consistently high. According to the Public Religion Research Institute, it was 66% in April, down from 77% in March, when Trump enjoyed a bump in the brief window after the coronavirus became a national threat and before his personal incapacity was exposed. Even now, his support among white evangelicals is about 50% higher than among Americans generally.

Trump’s appeal, says Robert Jones, CEO of PRRI, is based “more on fears about demographic change and white Christian displacement than the traditional culture war issues of same-sex marriage and abortion.”

Such fears are a consistent element of white Christian conservatism. It’s worth noting those who rise above them.

Rick Warren’s Saddleback Church, an evangelical megachurch based in Southern California, offers a quiet counterpoint to the politics of white grievance and rage that permeate conservative America. Saddleback is conservative. But not like that.

 

 

[TGHusker]

Tribalism is reflected in how we respond to the c-19 virus and particularly on when to open up the economy. 

 

 

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/democrats-republicans-split-on-coronavirus-impact-poll-shows/ar-BB13V7pA
 

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The differences, revealed in a new poll from Monmouth University Monday, shed light on the political ramifications of the virus but also show how voters see the world in starkly different terms.

“Partisan tribalism is the most obvious explanation,” said Patrick Murray, director of the Monmouth poll. “That’s how strong the filters are, reinforced by exposure to information sources that stick to different narratives.”

Those narratives are reflected in the major-party candidates for president themselves: President Donald Trump has played down the death tolls and promised an economic rebound later this year. He has also urged states to reopen businesses and ease lockdowns even as many Americans remain wary.

His Democratic challenger, Joe Biden, has criticized Trump for moving too fast to reopen the economy and warned of more damage if the government doesn’t take steps to prepare for the next pandemic.

 

 

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Democrats’ pessimism seems to be rooted in a different coronavirus experience. They’re more likely to know someone who has gotten the coronavirus -- 47% compared to 39% for independents and 37% for Republicans. And Democrats are more likely to be working from home, losing income, getting groceries delivered, and struggling to pay bills.

And they’re much more worried about getting the virus themselves: 60% of Democrats are “very concerned,” compared with 38% for independents and 25% for Republicans.

Those differences can be partly explained by geography. The virus has hit densely populated urban centers, which tend to be Democratic, especially hard. And with some exceptions, like Ohio and Maryland, Republican governors have generally been quicker to ease restrictions on economic activity.

But the poll also shows different degrees of optimism between the two parties, with 79% of Republicans confident the country will limit the effects of the outbreak within the next few weeks. Just 30% of Democrats are similarly confident.

Republicans are also much more optimistic about a post-coronavirus world: 80% of Republicans are very hopeful that their lives will return to normal, compared with 53% for Democrats.

 

 

[funhusker]

11 minutes ago, TGHusker said:

Tribalism is reflected in how we respond to the c-19 virus and particularly on when to open up the economy. 

 

 

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/democrats-republicans-split-on-coronavirus-impact-poll-shows/ar-BB13V7pA
 

 

 

I'm not going to argue a Monmouth poll.  They do far better than I ever would.  But I do take a small issue with them says "dems are more fearful.."  That is an issue with the whole polarization around masks.  Many people "on the right" view wearing a mask as being afraid.  And "daggummit, they ain't afraid of nothin!"

 

Wearing a mask doesn't make a person "afraid" of making their elderly parents sick.  It makes them "concerned" enough about the situation to take precautions. 

 

I like their questions, worded fairly.  But the stats doesn't necessarily imply what the title claims.  I would have answered "yes" to being very concerned.  My wife is a nurse and may be exposed.  I live in Douglas county, a hotspot in Nebraska.  I go to Walmart and Menards to pick up essential goods.  My parents are in their 70's with health problems.  I'm not scared, but I'm concerned enough that I have changed my routines to limit the chance of my parents exposure.  Responsible and fearful are two very different things...

[TGHusker]

1 minute ago, funhusker said:

I'm not going to argue a Monmouth poll.  They do far better than I ever would.  But I do take a small issue with them says "dems are more fearful.."  That is an issue with the whole polarization around masks.  Many people "on the right" view wearing a mask as being afraid.  And "daggummit, they ain't afraid of nothin!"

 

Wearing a mask doesn't make a person "afraid" of making their elderly parents sick.  It makes them "concerned" enough about the situation to take precautions. 

 

I like their questions, worded fairly.  But the stats doesn't necessarily imply what the title claims.  I would have answered "yes" to being very concerned.  My wife is a nurse and may be exposed.  I live in Douglas county, a hotspot in Nebraska.  I go to Walmart and Menards to pick up essential goods.  My parents are in their 70's with health problems.  I'm not scared, but I'm concerned enough that I have changed my routines to limit the chance of my parents exposure.  Responsible and fearful are two very different things...

I agree. I didn't like the word fearful either - that denotes something totally different.    I would look at the results and ask - who is acting with a deeper sense of  responsibility as well.

[BigRedBuster]

 

[TGHusker]

1 hour ago, BigRedBuster said:

 

great article and also very sad - people are all to easily persuaded to jump off the cliff when there is no one chasing them.

[RedDenver]

 

[TGHusker]

This is  link below  has several podcasts that address bias.  Podcast 3 addresses political bias.  This is a good podcast to understand how to break down the walls between us as Americans &  overcome our biases - which we all have - yes even YOU. 

Start the podcasts at # 1 at the bottom of the page. 
 

Quote

 

 

How do we transform and transcend our biases? From judgments made unconsciously to complacency in systemic evil, we must learn how to see if we are to learn how to transform. Center for Action and Contemplation faculty members Brian McLaren and Richard Rohr join Rev. Dr. Jacqui Lewis Ph.D. of New York’s Middle Church for this special six-episode podcast series Learning How to See. Listen as these three powerful public theologians discuss how seeing is social, political, and contemplative.

 

 

https://cac.org/podcast/learning-how-to-see/

 

Here are 7 of the bias that are mentioned.

1. Confirmation Bias   (brain welcomes what it already thinks and resists conflicting info)

2. Complexity Bias  (we prefer to believe a simple lie than a complex truth - trumpers please listen and learn)

3. Community Bias (our brain wants to confirm what our group thinks and avoid conflict with the group think)

4. Contact Bias   (lack of relationship prevents us from see the other person's point of view.  Rich people don't hate poor people, they just don't know any poor people)

5. Conservative/liberal Bias  Liberals see through a nurturing parental window (people are basically good but need guidance, tools and encouragement ) while conservatives see the world through a strict father window (people are basically bad and we need to protect them from themselves and protect others from them) Liberals value justice, fairness and kindness. Conservatives value fairness, kindness, purity, loyalty, authority, and tradition

6. Consciousness Bias  (transactional vs transformative  - we see live as just transactional or we see it as transformative )

7. Competency Bias   - we are incompetent to know how competent we are or incompetent we are.  

[Archy1221]

28 minutes ago, TGHusker said:

5. Conservative/liberal Bias  Liberals see through a nurturing parental window (people are basically good but need guidance, tools and encouragement ) while conservatives see the world through a strict father window (people are basically bad and we need to protect them from themselves and protect others from them) Liberals value justice, fairness and kindness. Conservatives value fairness, kindness, purity, loyalty, authority, and tradition

Not sure I follow this particular passage.  I’ve never heard before that conservatives think people are bad and we need to protect them from themselves.  Most conservatives believe people can inherently take care of themselves, have free will, but may need a hand from time to time 

[Born N Bled Red]

11 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

Not sure I follow this particular passage.  I’ve never heard before that conservatives think people are bad and we need to protect them from themselves.  Most conservatives believe people can inherently take care of themselves, have free will, but may need a hand from time to time 

 

Eh... my view of Liberals vs. Conservative boils down to this

 

Liberals- Together we can achieve more - let's go get ours

 

Conservatives- I'm strongest on my own - I got mine - you go get yours.