Censorship

[RedDenver]

2 hours ago, nic said:

If they say it and it’s not slander or a threat or against a law and then lose their livelihood it is a problem. 

Regardless of anyone's views on whether that's a problem or not, it's not a 1st Amendment issue, which as I said is what FIRE is concerned about.

[nic]

8 hours ago, Ulty said:

Do you actually have examples of this happening at colleges and universities, or is this simply more hyperbolic hand-wringing over "cancel culture"?

 

As a matter of fact, faculty members ARE being warned/threatened to limit their speech, but it is predominantly coming from right-wing lawmakers and administrations. Florida is an example. Idaho is an example. Any state that is looking to ban "controversial topics" in the classroom is an example. But those are different examples than what Fox seems to be worried about.

Fox was just reporting what FIRE published and tried to get a few student responses. I do not personally know a faculty member who lost his job but my father’s raises and promotions were stopped for roughy a decade once because he stuck up for two women that were getting harassed because they were trying to study in a “man’s” field of work. (This event took place in the 60s and field was tool and die or industrial drafting). I believe I can find articles showing similar examples of faculty getting treated unfairly for their opinions, and there are many examples or speakers getting cancelled due to stances they have taken. I have even posted a few. Let me find them. And what about people like the Baker in Colorado? that went all the way to SCOTUS before they got their biz back. There is pressure on faculty to conform and students whether you choose to believe it or not.

[Ulty]

15 minutes ago, nic said:

my father’s raises and promotions were stopped for roughy a decade once because he stuck up for two women that were getting harassed because they were trying to study in a “man’s” field of work. (This event took place in the 60s and field was tool and die or industrial drafting).

I would believe this. 

 

22 minutes ago, nic said:

There is pressure on faculty to conform and students whether you choose to believe it or not.

I believe this too. I work in higher ed, I am quite familiar with the culture of academia. I'm also familiar with FIRE. But I'm still confused about the point you are trying to make. Are you making claims here about censorship? First amendment? Or social norms? 

 

The scenario with your father does not appear to be a 1st Amendment issue. As far as the cake baker in Colorado, if this is the case you are referring to, the SCOTUS ruling was not based on free speech or free expression. 

 

While college campuses do undoubtedly swing more liberal, conservative faculty and students are not subject to widespread oppression by administrators or laws because of their views. When people say offensive things on campus, they tend to get publicly called out, but that is not what censorship is. On the other hand, academic freedom actually is currently under attack by legislatures and boards across the country who are seeking to prevent teachers from discussing things like race and abortion. That IS censorship.

[Lorewarn]

On 9/28/2022 at 7:26 PM, nic said:

Ask Dave Chappelle. I actually hear comedians complaining not people complaining for them. I wonder how long Andrew Dice Clay would survive in today’s climate and he was from the 90s ….or before. 

 

 

Dave Chappelle is still getting $50 million standup special deals.

 

 

Cancel culture is a real thing that is more prominent on the left (because the left has essentially won the culture wars) but god damn do right-sympathizing folks make it hard to talk about by strawman-ing and overblowing the issue at every turn.

[NM11046]

I feel that "Cancel culture" is a stupid term used by the right to try and drum up anger and divisiveness and ultimately blame others for the fact that people will not support something or someone who goes against their morals.  That's been going on since forever, it only has a catchy name now so that whiny GOP folks can chirp about how unfair it is and play the victim.  

 

You do $hitty stuff, you may not have a market/friends any longer.  Solution:  Don't do $hitty stuff.

[BigRedBuster]

4 minutes ago, NM11046 said:

I feel that "Cancel culture" is a stupid term used by the right to try and drum up anger and divisiveness and ultimately blame others for the fact that people will not support something or someone who goes against their morals.  That's been going on since forever, it only has a catchy name now so that whiny GOP folks can chirp about how unfair it is and play the victim.  

 

You do $hitty stuff, you may not have a market/friends any longer.  Solution:  Don't do $hitty stuff.

Exactly.  What they call cancel culture has been going on since the beginning of time. Now, all of a sudden, it's a huge political issue because Republicans want to use it to motivate their masses.

[knapplc]

21 minutes ago, NM11046 said:

I feel that "Cancel culture" is a stupid term used by the right to try and drum up anger and divisiveness and ultimately blame others for the fact that people will not support something or someone who goes against their morals.  That's been going on since forever, it only has a catchy name now so that whiny GOP folks can chirp about how unfair it is and play the victim.  

 

You do $hitty stuff, you may not have a market/friends any longer.  Solution:  Don't do $hitty stuff.

 

"Cancel culture," as the Right applies it, is most often "Consequence Culture," which is as you describe: You do s#!tty stuff, there are consequences.

 

The Right wants to be vile and evil and bully people they don't like, and when they get push-back, they cry and whine and complain about how "canceled" they are while on a 14-stop media tour, and they become the cause celebre for a week until the Right moves on to the next outrage. 

[Lorewarn]

3 hours ago, BigRedBuster said:

Exactly.  What they call cancel culture has been going on since the beginning of time. Now, all of a sudden, it's a huge political issue because Republicans want to use it to motivate their masses.

 

 

The ability to gather and coordinate and harass at scale is something new with the emergence of social media, and there are plenty of easy examples to look at to realize it is a real phenomenon that isn't just a meritocracy of consequences.

[BigRedBuster]

19 minutes ago, Lorewarn said:

 

 

The ability to gather and coordinate and harass at scale is something new with the emergence of social media, and there are plenty of easy examples to look at to realize it is a real phenomenon that isn't just a meritocracy of consequences.

Just because it's easier to do it now, doesn't mean it hasn't always existed.

[ZRod]

44 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

Just because it's easier to do it now, doesn't mean it hasn't always existed.

Everybody attacked by Joseph McCarthy says hello.

[knapplc]

1 hour ago, Lorewarn said:

The ability to gather and coordinate and harass at scale is something new with the emergence of social media, and there are plenty of easy examples to look at to realize it is a real phenomenon that isn't just a meritocracy of consequences.

 

@BigRedBuster and you are both making valid points. It has existed for... ever? Alcibiades certainly had some issue with the populace turning against him for political purposes back in the day.

 

@Lorewarn is right that social media makes the process of digitally harassing someone much, much easier.

[Lorewarn]

23 hours ago, BigRedBuster said:

Just because it's easier to do it now, doesn't mean it hasn't always existed.

 

 

Groupthink and mob mentalities have always existed. The efficiency of how successfully the mob is able to dramatically ruin people's livelihoods/privacy/peace is dramatically increased, and that is something we need to figure out how to handle. Shrugging it off as having always been a thing isn't useful. That's like not caring to make cars safer and drivers education better because we've always traveled distances with horses/buggies/etc. Yes we're doing the 'same' things, but the tools have changed and learning how to safely use the tools is the important part.

[nic]

On 9/30/2022 at 2:21 AM, Lorewarn said:

 

 

Dave Chappelle is still getting $50 million standup special deals.

 

 

Cancel culture is a real thing that is more prominent on the left (because the left has essentially won the culture wars) but god damn do right-sympathizing folks make it hard to talk about by strawman-ing and overblowing the issue at every turn.

Only because Netflix, or whoever does his show, didn’t cave to the protests. Didn’t he recently get a show cancelled at a venue…..in Minneapolis maybe? I might be thinking of a different comedian.  I just remembered that the actress from the Mandalorian was let go pretty quickly by Disney. If I remember right, claiming only two genders and comparing the US political climate to Nazi Germany did her in.  The Nazi comparison happens so often these days it’s getting old. 

I am not so sure the left has won the culture wars. They are certainly forcing the issues and people that disagree with those issues generally keep their mouth shut for the same reasons we are having this discussion.

[funhusker]

1 minute ago, nic said:

Only because Netflix, or whoever does his show, didn’t cave to the protests. Didn’t he recently get a show cancelled at a venue…..in Minneapolis maybe? I might be thinking of a different comedian.  I just remembered that the actress from the Mandalorian was let go pretty quickly by Disney. If I remember right, claiming only two genders and comparing the US political climate to Nazi Germany did her in.  The Nazi comparison happens so often these days it’s getting old. 

I am not so sure the left has won the culture wars. They are certainly forcing the issues and people that disagree with those issues generally keep their mouth shut for the same reasons we are having this discussion.

People losing their jobs, especially celebrities, because of political comments isn't censorship.  It's business.

 

Protect the brand...

 

 

[Lorewarn]

5 hours ago, nic said:

Only because Netflix, or whoever does his show, didn’t cave to the protests. Didn’t he recently get a show cancelled at a venue…..in Minneapolis maybe? I might be thinking of a different comedian.  I just remembered that the actress from the Mandalorian was let go pretty quickly by Disney. If I remember right, claiming only two genders and comparing the US political climate to Nazi Germany did her in.  The Nazi comparison happens so often these days it’s getting old. 

I am not so sure the left has won the culture wars. They are certainly forcing the issues and people that disagree with those issues generally keep their mouth shut for the same reasons we are having this discussion.

 

 

Gina Carano wasn't technically let go - she wasn't currently doing any work for Lucasfilm since Mando had already wrapped shooting, they just decided not to bring her back and then grandstanded about it. But it also wasn't because of those one or two tweets, those were the straw that broke the back at the end of pieces slowly building. 

 

Regardless, she's a much better example (though still a bad one, as all celebrities are) of cancel culture than Chappelle is.