The Atheist Experience

[Omaha-Husker]

Sorry typed more than I planned hope it isn't a ramble.

 

I went to Catholic school K-12 so I got the exposure to religion. I never really got into it as a kid or teen, I went to mass every week to respect my parents, but when I moved out I stopped going and have only gone on Christmas again b/c my mother wants me to and it is no skin off my back and I never found value in being an argumentative non believer. If the belief system you follow helps connect you to something, helps heal your soul, helps connect you to a community I find that to be a good thing. I try quite hard to keep that same energy when meeting people that truly believe in astrology or other more niche beliefs as well. Who am I to dump on what helps them find peace in the world.

 

I do find myself still identifying "well, I grew up Catholic" here in Omaha when it comes up and I was talking got a lifelong buddy about this recently as he has the same education as me. We kind of came to the conclusion that especially in a city like Omaha where Catholic high schools are fairly common and their grads are often in high level positions across the city that it is a sort of way to try and show status like we belong to the club we have a certain status. I just find it interesting that I always point that out when the topic arises. Yes, I went to Creighton Prep if that wasn't painfully obvious with the status comment.

 

My friend has a young child and told me that even though they haven't practiced in a long time that they are planning on sending him to Catholic school and are strongly considering going to mass regularly not b/c they are believers, but b/c of how growing up in that community helped form him into a decent and successful person and would like his son to have a strong community like the one he grew up in. Not to say that you can't be successful and good going to public school and having no contact with religion obviously b/c that isn't the case.

 

It was an interesting convo I have thought about a bit since. Maybe the value of religion to some people may be more focused on shared morals, shared identity, shared values rather than a strong attachment to a divine being.

 

In a time where more people live alone than ever before people get married later, have kids later. Where reported loneliness is higher than ever. Where things seem more polarized than they have in a long time. I sort of envy those that find community, peace and joy in their beliefs. It can be tough to find your "people" in the world and I think religion helps some with that.

 

I brought this up in an immigration thread about hispanic immigrants moving into small Nebraska cities and towns. A town's mayor was interviewed and he said something to the effect that immigrants being religious helped them become members of the community quicker. "It is hard to hate the family in the pew next to you every Sunday" was the paraphrase comment. Something like religion a shared belief and value system helped to defuse prejudice and hate. It can't be all that bad.

 

I guess that is my general atheist experience. Probably fall closer to an agnostic I suppose.

[funhusker]

9 hours ago, Omaha-Husker said:

Sorry typed more than I planned hope it isn't a ramble.

 

I went to Catholic school K-12 so I got the exposure to religion. I never really got into it as a kid or teen, I went to mass every week to respect my parents, but when I moved out I stopped going and have only gone on Christmas again b/c my mother wants me to and it is no skin off my back and I never found value in being an argumentative non believer. If the belief system you follow helps connect you to something, helps heal your soul, helps connect you to a community I find that to be a good thing. I try quite hard to keep that same energy when meeting people that truly believe in astrology or other more niche beliefs as well. Who am I to dump on what helps them find peace in the world.

 

I do find myself still identifying "well, I grew up Catholic" here in Omaha when it comes up and I was talking got a lifelong buddy about this recently as he has the same education as me. We kind of came to the conclusion that especially in a city like Omaha where Catholic high schools are fairly common and their grads are often in high level positions across the city that it is a sort of way to try and show status like we belong to the club we have a certain status. I just find it interesting that I always point that out when the topic arises. Yes, I went to Creighton Prep if that wasn't painfully obvious with the status comment.

 

My friend has a young child and told me that even though they haven't practiced in a long time that they are planning on sending him to Catholic school and are strongly considering going to mass regularly not b/c they are believers, but b/c of how growing up in that community helped form him into a decent and successful person and would like his son to have a strong community like the one he grew up in. Not to say that you can't be successful and good going to public school and having no contact with religion obviously b/c that isn't the case.

 

It was an interesting convo I have thought about a bit since. Maybe the value of religion to some people may be more focused on shared morals, shared identity, shared values rather than a strong attachment to a divine being.

 

In a time where more people live alone than ever before people get married later, have kids later. Where reported loneliness is higher than ever. Where things seem more polarized than they have in a long time. I sort of envy those that find community, peace and joy in their beliefs. It can be tough to find your "people" in the world and I think religion helps some with that.

 

I brought this up in an immigration thread about hispanic immigrants moving into small Nebraska cities and towns. A town's mayor was interviewed and he said something to the effect that immigrants being religious helped them become members of the community quicker. "It is hard to hate the family in the pew next to you every Sunday" was the paraphrase comment. Something like religion a shared belief and value system helped to defuse prejudice and hate. It can't be all that bad.

 

I guess that is my general atheist experience. Probably fall closer to an agnostic I suppose.

Not much different than my situation.  I don't believe Jesus rose from the dead and the only way we can get into Heaven is if we believe he did.  My parents' pastor tried to tell me that Ghandi wouldn't be in Heaven because he didn't choose Jesus as his savior.  I replied that I'd rather be in Hell with Ghandi than stuck forever with a god that cast off good people (I know Ghandi had some issues...) because of something so trivial.  Haven't really looked back.

 

Anyway,  my kids are first communion age.  I really had no interest in making them go through all of this since we stopped attending church about 4 years ago.  But after talking with my wife we decided to do it as long as the kids were okay with it (meaning that they would be respectful through the process).  We chose to do it because we live in west Omaha and all of the kids' friends have either taken 1st communion as a Catholic or were also going through it now as 5th graders.  We didn't want our kids to feel left out.

[NUance]

15 hours ago, RedDenver said:

Yes. That argument is circular logic because the only way we could have this discussion is if the events that led to us existing have already taken place.

 

Fair enough. I realize that some people believe that if you watch a swamp long enough eventually lightening will strike and somehow create a living cell.  And in turn, as you sit watching that swamp, millions of years later a pack of Cub Scouts will pitch their tent there, having been evolved from the muck that was struck by lightening.  I just don't have enough faith in happenstance to believe in something like that.  

 

[NUance]

12 hours ago, Frott Scost said:

So your argument is, I dont know therefore God.

And the alternative would be: The ecological system of earth is far too complex for humans to create or even understand, so it must have randomly occurred through happenstance and fortuitous mutations.  Yeah, that must be the answer.  Ha ha! 

[ZRod]

One of the biggest issues for me was the human element of the Bible. It's written by humans, selected by humans, translated by humans, and printed by humans. It has to be full of human errors, and indeed it is. There are many examples of Bibles with printing errors or poor translations.

 

Why did some books make into the Bible while others didn't? Why did they chose this word or phrase over the other when translating? There's quite a bit lost in translation as well; leading to debate about the snake in the garden , Lucifer and Satan, is Satan really a specific person,  homosexual relations or pedophilia, is Mary really a virgin, Jesus was really name Yeshua/Joshua, the holy spirit itself, and on and on...

[Ratt Mhule]

8 minutes ago, NUance said:

And the alternative would be: The ecological system of earth is far too complex for humans to create or even understand, so it must have randomly occurred through happenstance and fortuitous mutations.  Yeah, that must be the answer.  Ha ha! 

No, the alternative would be we dont know how the universe came into being so lets try and find the answer.

[NUance]

35 minutes ago, funhusker said:

Not much different than my situation.  I don't believe Jesus rose from the dead and the only way we can get into Heaven is if we believe he did.  My parents' pastor tried to tell me that Ghandi wouldn't be in Heaven because he didn't choose Jesus as his savior.  I replied that I'd rather be in Hell with Ghandi than stuck forever with a god that cast off good people (I know Ghandi had some issues...) because of something so trivial.  Haven't really looked back.

 

Anyway,  my kids are first communion age.  I really had no interest in making them go through all of this since we stopped attending church about 4 years ago.  But after talking with my wife we decided to do it as long as the kids were okay with it (meaning that they would be respectful through the process).  We chose to do it because we live in west Omaha and all of the kids' friends have either taken 1st communion as a Catholic or were also going through it now as 5th graders.  We didn't want our kids to feel left out.

I see posts like yours and @Omaha-Husker 's post and it saddens me.  Not because I think you're wrong, but because the churches and religion you've experienced has clearly done you a disservice.  

 

Many churches and religions—not all, but many—are in the business of self propagation and wealth gathering.  For these churches worship and learning about God is of secondary importance.  It's a sad state of affairs.  

 

 

 

[Ratt Mhule]

6 minutes ago, ZRod said:

One of the biggest issues for me was the human element of the Bible. It's written by humans, selected by humans, translated by humans, and printed by humans. It has to be full of human errors, and indeed it is. There are many examples of Bibles with printing errors or poor translations.

 

Why did some books make into the Bible while others didn't? Why did they chose this word or phrase over the other when translating? There's quite a bit lost in translation as well; leading to debate about the snake in the garden , Lucifer and Satan, is Satan really a specific person,  homosexual relations or pedophilia, is Mary really a virgin, Jesus was really name Yeshua/Joshua, the holy spirit itself, and on and on...

Exactly, so if there are so many errors and translation issues how do we know what is the word of God and what is a mistake? We cant know because God refuses to correct it. 

[NUance]

6 minutes ago, Frott Scost said:

No, the alternative would be we dont know how the universe came into being so lets try and find the answer.

 

Agreed!  +1   I seek answers all the time.  Everyone should!  

[RedDenver]

12 hours ago, Decoy73 said:

Really?  It’s called faith.  Maybe you’ve heard about it.  Based on my experiences, I choose to believe.  You don’t.   OK.  But I’m not getting into silly questions like this.  

Then why post in this thread?

[NUance]

3 minutes ago, Frott Scost said:

Exactly, so if there are so many errors and translation issues how do we know what is the word of God and what is a mistake? We cant know because God refuses to correct it. 

 

Maybe it's all part of the sorting process.  I'm just spitballing here.  

[ZRod]

1 hour ago, NUance said:

And the alternative would be: The ecological system of earth is far too complex for humans to create or even understand, so it must have randomly occurred through happenstance and fortuitous mutations.  Yeah, that must be the answer.  Ha ha! 

The ecological systems of Earth have formed over billions of years, something pretty much incomprehensible to our minds. We have fossil records showing evolution; a huge part of the mutations necessary for life that you laugh at.

 

Really life isn't that complex, and it's really poorly designed. We eat and breath through the same tube, and if we try to do both at the same time we'll kill ourselves. The amusement park is right next to the sewage plant. Our spine is poorly adapted for upright travel. Our eyes barely see any of the light spectrum.

[NUance]

13 hours ago, Frott Scost said:

What first hand things from reliable sources have you heard that prove Jesus: 1. Rose from the dead and 2. Is the son of god?

The people who knew him best during the three years of his ministry—his apostles—left their homes and jobs after his death, and spent the rest of their lives spreading his message.  Nearly all of them suffered horrible deaths rather than renounce their faith.  So there's that.  

[RedDenver]

Just now, NUance said:

The people who knew him best during the three years of his ministry—his apostles—left their homes and jobs after his death, and spent the rest of their lives spreading his message.  Nearly all of them suffered horrible deaths rather than renounce their faith.  So there's that.  

Supposedly.

 

And even if they did, religious zealots do crazy stuff to become martyrs, so I'm not sure that's very convincing.

[NUance]

11 minutes ago, ZRod said:

The ecological systems of Earth have formed over billions of years, something pretty much incomprehensible to our minds. We have fossil records showing evolution; a huge part of the mutations necessary for laugh that you laugh at.

 

Really life isn't that complex, and it's really poorly designed. We eat and breathe through the same tube, and if we try to do both at the same time we'll kill ourselves. The amusement park is right next to the sewage plant. Our spine is poorly adapted for upright travel. Our eyes barely see any of the light spectrum.

 

Not that complex??  Ha ha!   You've got to be kidding.  How much money would it cost to make a pair of grasshoppers?  I don't mean mechanical toys.  I mean small animals that can survive in harsh conditions, eat many different kinds of food, and reproduce year after year to carry on for thousands of years.  

 

The technology of grasshoppers is far beyond human comprehension.