The Atheist Experience

[Ratt Mhule]

 

[TGHusker]

You  all know me, I'm a Christian.  I think we are all on a journey. And each person's journey is personal to them.

My journey:  Non-believer > believer > searcher (read the arguments for and against a Christian faith) > stronger believer

 

I came across this article and thought it was interesting.  Atheists religious? Christians secular? 

Read this Pew survey to find out what I mean.

 

https://getpocket.com/explore/item/atheists-are-sometimes-more-religious-than-christians?utm_source=pocket-newtab

 

Quote

 

Americans are deeply religious people—and atheists are no exception. Western Europeans are deeply secular people—and Christians are no exception.

These twin statements are generalizations, but they capture the essence of a fascinating finding in a Pew Research study about Christian identity in Western Europe. By surveying almost 25,000 people in 15 countries in the region, and comparing the results with data previously gathered in the U.S., the Pew Research Center discovered three things.

First, researchers confirmed the widely known fact that, overall, Americans are much more religious than Western Europeans. They gauged religious commitment using standard questions, including “Do you believe in God with absolute certainty?” and “Do you pray daily?”

Second, the researchers found that American “nones”—those who identify as atheist, agnostic, or nothing in particular—are more religious than European nones. The notion that religiously unaffiliated people can be religious at all may seem contradictory, but if you disaffiliate from organized religion it does not necessarily mean you’ve sworn off belief in God, say, or prayer.

The third finding reported in the study is by far the most striking. As it turns out, “American ‘nones’ are as religious as—or even more religious than—Christians in several European countries, including France, Germany, and the U.K.”

“That was a surprise,” Neha Sahgal, the lead researcher on the study, told me. “That’s the comparison that’s fascinating to me.” She highlighted the fact that whereas only 23 percent of European Christians say they believe in God with absolute certainty, 27 percent of American nones say this.

America is a country so suffused with faith that religious attributes abound even among the secular. Consider the rise of “atheist churches,” which cater to Americans who have lost faith in supernatural deities but still crave community, enjoy singing with others, and want to think deeply about morality. It’s religion, minus all the God stuff. This is a phenomenon spreading across the country, from the Seattle Atheist Church to the North Texas Church of Freethought. The Oasis Network, which brings together non-believers to sing and learn every Sunday morning, has affiliates in nine U.S. cities.

In April 2018, almost 1,000 people streamed into a church in San Francisco for an unprecedented event billed as “Beyoncé Mass.” Most were people of color and members of the LGBTQ community. Many were secular. They used Queen Bey’s songs, which are replete with religious symbolism, as the basis for a communal celebration—one that had all the trappings of a religious service. That seemed completely fitting to some, including one reverend who said, “Beyoncé is a better theologian than many of the pastors and priests in our church today.”

The Catholic-themed Met Gala in May 2018 was another instance of religion commingling with secular American culture. Fashion’s biggest night of the year saw celebrities sweeping down the red carpet dressed in papal tiaras, halos, angel wings, and countless crucifixes. These outfits, along with the Metropolitan Museum of Art’s accompanying exhibition, “Heavenly Bodies: Fashion and the Catholic Imagination,” drew the ire of some Christians. But it’s notable that so many celebrities, not to mention average Americans, embraced the theme with gusto. It’s easier to imagine this happening in America than in, say, staunchly secular France.

The Pew survey found that although most Western Europeans still identify as Christians, for many of them, Christianity is a cultural or ethnic identity rather than a religious one. Sahgal calls them “post-Christian Christians,” though that label may be a bit misleading: The tendency to conceptualize Christianity as an ethnic marker is at least as old as the Crusades, when non-Christian North Africans and Middle Easterners were imagined as “others” relative to white, Christian Europeans. The survey also found that 11 percent of Western Europeans now call themselves “spiritual but not religious.”

“I hypothesize that being ‘spiritual’ may be a transitional position between being Christian and being non-religious,” said Linda Woodhead, a professor of politics, philosophy, and religion at Lancaster University in the U.K. “Spirituality provides an opportunity for people to maintain what they like about Christianity without the bits they don’t like.”

Woodhead pointed to another finding in the Pew study: Most Western Europeans still believe in the idea of the soul. “So it’s not that we’re seeing straightforward secularization, where religion gives way to atheism and a rejection of all aspects of religion,” she said. “We’re seeing something more complex that we haven’t fully got our heads around. In Europe, it’s about people disaffiliating from the institution of the Church and the old authority figures … and moving toward a much more independent-minded, varied set of beliefs.”

The U.S. hasn’t secularized as profoundly as Europe has, and its history is crucial to understanding why. Joseph Blankholm, a professor at UC Santa Barbara who focuses on atheism and secularism, told me the Cold War was a particularly important inflection point. “The 1950s were the most religious America has ever been,” he said. “‘In God We Trust’ becomes the official national motto. ‘Under God’ is entered into the pledge of allegiance. That identity is being consciously formed by specific actors like Truman and Eisenhower, who are promoting a Christian identity at home and abroad, over against a godless communism. It’s the Christianization of America—as a Cold War tool.”

 

 

[JJ Husker]

I'm always curious why people who lose faith, or never really had it to begin with, seem to have this compulsion once they claim to be atheist/agnostic or otherwise new non-believers to then ask all these gotcha questions of believers and basically proceed to tell them why they are wrong and shouldn't have faith.

 

Really, not being a smart a$$, I'm curious. Is it a way to validate their decision? Is it some evil ploy to try get others to follow in their footsteps? Could it be they still have some doubts about their decision of becoming atheist and are trying to get someone to talk them out of it?  Seems to me if I found myself in that boat I would be more than happy to just go about my business and forget about it. Faith and belief are by their very nature not interested in having hard facts or proof for some of these questions. Anyone who thinks humans are and should be capable of fully understanding and having absolute hard proof.....well, that's why some are atheists and struggle with faith and belief. It's just that simple so why with all the gotcha questions?

[knapplc]

13 minutes ago, JJ Husker said:

I'm always curious why people who lose faith, or never really had it to begin with, seem to have this compulsion once they claim to be atheist/agnostic or otherwise new non-believers to then ask all these gotcha questions of believers and basically proceed to tell them why they are wrong and shouldn't have faith.

 

Really, not being a smart a$$, I'm curious. Is it a way to validate their decision? Is it some evil ploy to try get others to follow in their footsteps? Could it be they still have some doubts about their decision of becoming atheist and are trying to get someone to talk them out of it?  Seems to me if I found myself in that boat I would be more than happy to just go about my business and forget about it. Faith and belief are by their very nature not interested in having hard facts or proof for some of these questions. Anyone who thinks humans are and should be capable of fully understanding and having absolute hard proof.....well, that's why some are atheists and struggle with faith and belief. It's just that simple so why with all the gotcha questions?

 

I can't forget about people who believe in gods because they make political decisions that directly affect my life based on their gods.

 

If only it were as simple as, "I don't believe this anymore, so it no longer affects me" and I could just stop talking about it.

 

 

[ZRod]

41 minutes ago, JJ Husker said:

I'm always curious why people who lose faith, or never really had it to begin with, seem to have this compulsion once they claim to be atheist/agnostic or otherwise new non-believers to then ask all these gotcha questions of believers and basically proceed to tell them why they are wrong and shouldn't have faith.

 

Really, not being a smart a$$, I'm curious. Is it a way to validate their decision? Is it some evil ploy to try get others to follow in their footsteps? Could it be they still have some doubts about their decision of becoming atheist and are trying to get someone to talk them out of it?  Seems to me if I found myself in that boat I would be more than happy to just go about my business and forget about it. Faith and belief are by their very nature not interested in having hard facts or proof for some of these questions. Anyone who thinks humans are and should be capable of fully understanding and having absolute hard proof.....well, that's why some are atheists and struggle with faith and belief. It's just that simple so why with all the gotcha questions?

It cuts both ways. There's the same religious people telling you how you should live your life or be sentenced to eternal damnation. You can find them at every college campus, on street corners near abortion clinics, or on this board.

[JJ Husker]

32 minutes ago, knapplc said:

 

I can't forget about people who believe in gods because they make political decisions that directly affect my life based on their gods.

 

If only it were as simple as, "I don't believe this anymore, so it no longer affects me" and I could just stop talking about it.

 

 

 

I can understand that. It just seems as if a lot (most) of these types of discussions on Husker late aren't prefaced that way and have nothing to do with the involved politics. It always feels like a bit of an attack on Christianity or believers. (Maybe because I'm in that other boat). I mean this thread sure wasn't started with political issues at the forefront.

[JJ Husker]

2 minutes ago, ZRod said:

It cuts both ways. There's the same religious people telling you how you should live your life or be sentenced to eternal damnation. You can find them at every college campus, on street corners near abortion clinics, or on this board.

I'll b the first to admit there are way more than enough bad Christians and sh#tty people in this country. Doesn't really have anything to do with my question.

[Ratt Mhule]

43 minutes ago, JJ Husker said:

I'm always curious why people who lose faith, or never really had it to begin with, seem to have this compulsion once they claim to be atheist/agnostic or otherwise new non-believers to then ask all these gotcha questions of believers and basically proceed to tell them why they are wrong and shouldn't have faith.

 

Really, not being a smart a$$, I'm curious. Is it a way to validate their decision? Is it some evil ploy to try get others to follow in their footsteps? Could it be they still have some doubts about their decision of becoming atheist and are trying to get someone to talk them out of it?  Seems to me if I found myself in that boat I would be more than happy to just go about my business and forget about it. Faith and belief are by their very nature not interested in having hard facts or proof for some of these questions. Anyone who thinks humans are and should be capable of fully understanding and having absolute hard proof.....well, that's why some are atheists and struggle with faith and belief. It's just that simple so why with all the gotcha questions?

I would love to just go about my business and not interact about religion at all. Problem is, what knapp said, laws are based around religion and religious people try to force their doctrine on people. We had one person in this thread laughing at the fact he thinks Im going to hell. We had another person in another thread call my wife dirty because shes jewish then go on to insult and demean me because he thinks hes superior to me because he has “grace” and Im the hypocrit because I dont. 
 

The reason I started this thread though wasnt to get religious people to become atheist. I actually enjoy the calls on the show, Ive learned a lot about science, morality, bible, etc and I thought Id share and let others learn some stuff they may not have known. Its interesting to me and these conversations can be interesting. 

[funhusker]

1 hour ago, JJ Husker said:

I'm always curious why people who lose faith, or never really had it to begin with, seem to have this compulsion once they claim to be atheist/agnostic or otherwise new non-believers to then ask all these gotcha questions of believers and basically proceed to tell them why they are wrong and shouldn't have faith.

 

Really, not being a smart a$$, I'm curious. Is it a way to validate their decision? Is it some evil ploy to try get others to follow in their footsteps? Could it be they still have some doubts about their decision of becoming atheist and are trying to get someone to talk them out of it?  Seems to me if I found myself in that boat I would be more than happy to just go about my business and forget about it. Faith and belief are by their very nature not interested in having hard facts or proof for some of these questions. Anyone who thinks humans are and should be capable of fully understanding and having absolute hard proof.....well, that's why some are atheists and struggle with faith and belief. It's just that simple so why with all the gotcha questions?

I’m fine with most Christians.  I’m just annoyed with the people who are buttheads because of their religion.

 

I don’t know if I ever truly believed Jesus rose from the dead and was coming back. But I never had a problem being part of the church.

 

But I’ll be honest, the past 4 years played a huge role in my separation from Christianity.  Previously I assumed I had a similar value system to the other members of my church.  I was wrong on most counts.  If I didn’t like being around the people, no need for me to play pretend anymore.

 

I don’t know if that answers your question though.

[JJ Husker]

That makes sense. I didn’t read most of the thread. Sorry there were some of the all too common asshats doing their thing. That might help explain some of what I did read that seemed a little off.

 

Ive steered pretty clear of religious topics on HB for quite awhile. I just have no desire to defend religion, the church, Catholicism or Christianity etc. anymore. Way too many poor examples of what those things should be imo. I’m not going to defend the things other people do in the name of religion or the church just because I happen to share some of the base beliefs. I will go so far as to say I believe we were created by a “God” and this existence is not by chance. Anything more than that and it will eventually come down to human beings somehow screwing things up.

 

Edit- I guess that’s what happens when you’re a Catholic who extremely rarely ever missed going to mass prior to the pandemic but haven’t been to church once in the last 14 months. 

[ZRod]

2 hours ago, JJ Husker said:

I'll b the first to admit there are way more than enough bad Christians and sh#tty people in this country. Doesn't really have anything to do with my question.

I'm just saying it's human nature in both cases. You want to promote your brand, and brag about your new found knowledge. Well all do it. I tried to dunk on Landlord here a couple times after I was comfortably not believing anymore.

 

[FrantzHardySwag]

1 hour ago, ZRod said:

I'm just saying it's human nature in both cases. You want to promote your brand, and brag about your new found knowledge. Well all do it. I tried to dunk on Landlord here a couple times after I was comfortably not believing anymore.

 

Especially on a message board. This thread is called "Politics & Religion" after all. This place exists to share opinions. I'm agnostic and I go to church monthly with my catholic wife. I'd never try and dunk on someone at church. It's a place they go to worship and I absolutely respect that. Anyone that tries to jam atheism or religion down someones throat in daily life is probably a d!(k. 

[JJ Husker]

1 hour ago, ZRod said:

I'm just saying it's human nature in both cases. You want to promote your brand, and brag about your new found knowledge. Well all do it. I tried to dunk on Landlord here a couple times after I was comfortably not believing anymore.

 

 

Heck, even I want to dunk on the guy that has the "What God wants us to know" thread 

Ya know what, if God has something he really wants us to know or understand, he can get off his a$$ and make us aware. That's how religion has gotten so screwed up imo, human beings getting things wrong.

[ZRod]

14 minutes ago, JJ Husker said:

 

Heck, even I want to dunk on the guy that has the "What God wants us to know" thread 

Ya know what, if God has something he really wants us to know or understand, he can get off his a$$ and make us aware. That's how religion has gotten so screwed up imo, human beings getting things wrong.

[TGHusker]

We have to be comfortable in our own skin.  And it isn't my job to make someone else comfortable in MY skin.  I use to jump into these raging debates on HB and trying to 'prove' something.  None of us can 'prove' anything in a way that makes someone put on my 'skin'.   I can 'give a reason for the hope within me' but I cannot convince another to have the same hope.  It is easy to jump on religion and state only the negative.  Religious people are humans like the non-religious and we all share in the same 'human condition' - deal with the same issues, weaknesses, struggles as well as having aspirations & hopes for a better tomorrow.    There is a lot of good that religion and religious people bring to the table in helping the 'human condition'.  The same can be said of those who come from a non-religious perspective.  We probably all have more in common than what we think.