Floyd Case Verdict

[BigRedBuster]

Just now, knapplc said:

 

Victim blaming isn't a good look. 

But, he's not wrong.  He's said many times that there is inequality and things need to change.  But, there are lots of these situations where the person is resisting arrest or trying to escape the police.  Were the police justified to shoot the victim?  Many times not.  But, it's also correct to say that the victim probably would be still alive if he wasn't resisting arrest.

[knapplc]

1 minute ago, BigRedBuster said:

But, he's not wrong.  He's said many times that there is inequality and things need to change.  But, there are lots of these situations where the person is resisting arrest or trying to escape the police.  Were the police justified to shoot the victim?  Many times not.  But, it's also correct to say that the victim probably would be still alive if he wasn't resisting arrest.

 

It isn't when you have unarmed people being shot by police. And I don't have to "be respectful" to the police. I'm an American - they work for me.

 

We have policing in this country completely bass-ackwards. It is not my obligation to be respectful - it is theirs. They are public servants. 

 

We have to get cops off a pedestal. Respect them, yes. But shift the blame to the victim when a cop shoots them?  That's wrong thinking. 

[BigRedBuster]

I know a guy who got stopped for drunk driving.  Durring the arrest, the police officer went way out of protocol and mistreated him.  Then, he put stuff in the report that the dash board camera easily verified was wrong and needed to be changed.  

 

Now, the police officer was wrong and needed to be disciplined.  But, the guy I know put himself in that position to by driving drunk.

[BigRedBuster]

1 minute ago, knapplc said:

 

It isn't when you have unarmed people being shot by police. And I don't have to "be respectful" to the police. I'm an American - they work for me.

 

We have policing in this country completely bass-ackwards. It is not my obligation to be respectful - it is theirs. They are public servants. 

 

We have to get cops off a pedestal. Respect them, yes. But shift the blame to the victim when a cop shoots them?  That's wrong thinking. 

Nobody has said in this conversation that the police aren't doing something wrong that they need disciplined for....that I can see anyway.

[knapplc]

3 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

I know a guy who got stopped for drunk driving.  Durring the arrest, the police officer went way out of protocol and mistreated him.  Then, he put stuff in the report that the dash board camera easily verified was wrong and needed to be changed.  

 

Now, the police officer was wrong and needed to be disciplined.  But, the guy I know put himself in that position to by driving drunk.

 

So if your acquaintance had been more respectful the cop wouldn't have lied on the report?

[JJ Husker]

Just now, knapplc said:

 

Victim blaming isn't a good look. 

Sorry. I said what I said and I meant it.

 

I have this weird propensity to solve problems by the easiest means available to me. After all that is all any of us can do in the moment. Fixing institutional and societal issues is lot more involved and complicated and largely out of any one person’s control. If you want to live through a police interaction, listen to what I said. If you don’t agree with what I said, just go ahead and fight back, resist, go around jacked up on drugs, run and let me know how that goes for ya.

 

Some, a lot, of these people could have ended up not being victims. That’s just a fact and does not absolve the police at all of any of their malfeasance or wrongdoing.

[BigRedBuster]

2 minutes ago, knapplc said:

 

So if your acquaintance had been more respectful the cop wouldn't have lied on the report?

No, it was an example of someone doing something that put themselves in a situation where a bad cop was able to do something wrong. 

 

I said the cop needed disciplined.  He was actually fired shortly after due to this and other situations as he should have.  But, none of it happens to this guy if he didn't drive drunk.

[BigRedBuster]

It's one of those situations where what is happening is wrong.  But, all you can do is control what you do to minimize the problem.  If you don't do that, then you're not doing what you can do to protect yourself from a bad cop that shouldn't have his job.

[knapplc]

1 minute ago, JJ Husker said:

Sorry. I said what I said and I meant it.

 

I have this weird propensity to solve problems by the easiest means available to me. After all that is all any of us can do in the moment. Fixing institutional and societal issues is lot more involved and complicated and largely out of any one person’s control. If you want to live through a police interaction, listen to what I said. If you don’t agree with what I said, just go ahead and fight back, resist, go around jacked up on drugs, run and let me know how that goes for ya.

 

Some, a lot, of these people could have ended up not being victims. That’s just a fact and does not absolve the police at all of any of their malfeasance or wrongdoing.

 

Inevitably people are going to have police contact, we can't stop that. Right? Fair?

 

The problem this social movement has formed around is that when that contact happens, police are abusing their power. 

 

The answer can't be to stop people from doing things to generate police contact. No society has figured that out. 

 

The answer has to be better policing. No other wealthy nation's police force kills its citizens at the rate of America's. Every other country has police and police contact with their civilians. 

[knapplc]

2 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

No, it was an example of someone doing something that put themselves in a situation where a bad cop was able to do something wrong. 

 

I said the cop needed disciplined.  He was actually fired shortly after due to this and other situations as he should have.  But, none of it happens to this guy if he didn't drive drunk.

 

It doesn't happen to that guy, but it happens to someone else. Police come in contact with civilians. That is 100% unavoidable. 

 

Blaming civilians for bad policing is victim blaming. 

[ColoradoHusk]

5 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

I know a guy who got stopped for drunk driving.  Durring the arrest, the police officer went way out of protocol and mistreated him.  Then, he put stuff in the report that the dash board camera easily verified was wrong and needed to be changed.  

 

Now, the police officer was wrong and needed to be disciplined.  But, the guy I know put himself in that position to by driving drunk.

I agree that most of the time, cops are pulling people over for "doing something wrong".  However, they do pull over people for no reason at all, and then look for reasons to give them a ticket or arrest them.  When I was in high school, I was driving with some friends in Omaha.  A cop pulled me over, and his reason was "There was a robbery at a nearby bar, and the guy was wearing a hat and jacket, so you fit the description."  He then had me get out of the car, walk back to his police car, checked my driver's license, looked in my car with a flash light where my friends were sitting.

 

I didn't do anything out of line, but looking back on it, I didn't do anything to get pulled over.  I am not a lawyer, but doesn't that cop supposed to have probable cause to pull me over?  Also, to this day, nearly 30 years later, I wonder what that cop would have done if me and my friends were black.  He may have done nothing differently, or he may have treated me very poorly just from the color of my skin.

[JJ Husker]

10 minutes ago, knapplc said:

 

It isn't when you have unarmed people being shot by police. And I don't have to "be respectful" to the police. I'm an American - they work for me.

 

We have policing in this country completely bass-ackwards. It is not my obligation to be respectful - it is theirs. They are public servants. 

 

We have to get cops off a pedestal. Respect them, yes. But shift the blame to the victim when a cop shoots them?  That's wrong thinking. 

So which is it? We don’t have to be respectful because we’re American. (your 2nd sentence). Or, Respect them, yes. (Your 8th sentence).

 

And for clarity, I was not “shifting” blame from the police to the victim. The police have way more than their fair share of the blame and it cannot be shifted or erased. It is there for everyone to see. I’m talking about what any person, maybe a black person especially, can do for themselves to prevent becoming a victim. I’m an older white guy, I could likely get away with not being extremely respectful if I wanted too. I won’t test that theory to the point of resisting arrest though. Unfortunately, and the larger problem here is that black people don’t have that luxury in many situations. Isn’t it best that they realize that and act in their own self interest until society fixes the larger problem?

[JJ Husker]

10 minutes ago, knapplc said:

 

Inevitably people are going to have police contact, we can't stop that. Right? Fair?

 

The problem this social movement has formed around is that when that contact happens, police are abusing their power. 

 

The answer can't be to stop people from doing things to generate police contact. No society has figured that out. 

 

The answer has to be better policing. No other wealthy nation's police force kills its citizens at the rate of America's. Every other country has police and police contact with their civilians. 

I agree with this. I don’t believe I was advocating for no police contact. Simply that people realize that resisting will only lead to worse outcomes.

[knapplc]

3 minutes ago, JJ Husker said:

So which is it? We don’t have to be respectful because we’re American. (your 2nd sentence). Or, Respect them, yes. (Your 8th sentence).

 

And for clarity, I was not “shifting” blame from the police to the victim. The police have way more than their fair share of the blame and it cannot be shifted or erased. It is there for everyone to see. I’m talking about what any person, maybe a black person especially, can do for themselves to prevent becoming a victim. I’m an older white guy, I could likely get away with not being extremely respectful if I wanted too. I won’t test that theory to the point of resisting arrest though. Unfortunately, and the larger problem here is that black people don’t have that luxury in many situations. Isn’t it best that they realize that and act in their own self interest until society fixes the larger problem?

 

It's both - but the greater burden of respect is on the public servant. 

 

1 minute ago, JJ Husker said:

I agree with this. I don’t believe I was advocating for no police contact. Simply that people realize that resisting will only lead to worse outcomes.

 

This shifts the burden to the victim. The police are going to abuse authority, inevitably, so it's on the victim to not do anything to prompt that. 

 

That's backwards. It's on the police not to abuse. And it's far easier to fix that through training than it is to rebuild a society. 

[BigRedBuster]

17 minutes ago, knapplc said:

 

It doesn't happen to that guy, but it happens to someone else. Police come in contact with civilians. That is 100% unavoidable. 

 

Blaming civilians for bad policing is victim blaming. 

Nobody is blaming the victim for the bad behavior.