Chin and Co doing something right

[teachercd]

20 minutes ago, ColoradoHusk said:

I can’t say that I have watched Army’s defense closely, and I know they have played Michigan and Oklahoma close in recent years, but I would think that Army’s strong defensive rankings benefit from their offense trying to possess ball for 35-40 minutes a game.  That helps Army’s defensive rankings, but doesn’t make their defense “great”. That’s why other efficiency rankings should be used instead of total yards and points to determine how good a defense is. 

I used to do that in video games!  I would win the coin toss and do a 10 minute drive (5 minute quarters) and take it into the half up by a score!

[caveman99]

3 hours ago, ColoradoHusk said:

I can’t say that I have watched Army’s defense closely, and I know they have played Michigan and Oklahoma close in recent years, but I would think that Army’s strong defensive rankings benefit from their offense trying to possess ball for 35-40 minutes a game.  That helps Army’s defensive rankings, but doesn’t make their defense “great”. That’s why other efficiency rankings should be used instead of total yards and points to determine how good a defense is. 

I don't disagree, but Army's D is consistently in the Top 25-35 in many efficiency ratings; SP+ doesn't always love them but DFEI, DF+ and others typically do. Comparing Army to Western Kentucky and Georgia Southern just doesn't make sense IMO, but carry on. 

[Wistrom Disciple]

2 hours ago, caveman99 said:

I don't disagree, but Army's D is consistently in the Top 25-35 in many efficiency ratings; SP+ doesn't always love them but DFEI, DF+ and others typically do. Comparing Army to Western Kentucky and Georgia Southern just doesn't make sense IMO, but carry on. 

As it turns out... Army played Georgia Southern last year. And Western Kentucky the year before. All had "Top 30 Team Defenses" last season which is why they were included as a comparison. Alabama's defense came in at 32 last year and they didn't get to face off against Mercer, The Citadel, Tulane or the Blue Raiders of Middle Tennessee.

 

I have zero doubt Army's staff is a great group with a decent team, but let's pump the brakes on getting wrapped up in rankings.

 

[Husker in WI]

45 minutes ago, Wistrom Disciple said:

As it turns out... Army played Georgia Southern last year. And Western Kentucky the year before. All had "Top 30 Team Defenses" last season which is why they were included as a comparison. Alabama's defense came in at 32 last year and they didn't get to face off against Mercer, The Citadel, Tulane or the Blue Raiders of Middle Tennessee.

 

I have zero doubt Army's staff is a great group with a decent team, but let's pump the brakes on getting wrapped up in rankings.

 

13 hours ago, Wistrom Disciple said:

I didn't say they were bad teams, I used the comparison that Alabama was ranked #32 below all those teams. Alabama was the national champion and they were ranked closer to Nebraska at #50 than they were to Army at #2. Hence, my emphasis to not get wrapped up too much in the rankings alone. 

Bama has played Mercer and Citadel in the past few years, but yeah it's way different against legitimate P5 teams. I like the advanced rankings because they try and account who you play - the top 3 scoring defense last year were Marshall, Army, and Air Force. No one in their right mind thinks those were the top 3 defense, and rankings (F+ is the one I can find easily) agrees - they are 21st, 30th, and 45th respectively.

 

Bama was actually 12th by F+, which is more believable to me. YPG (looks like where the Bama @32 number is coming from) is a bad way to judge a defense.  I'd buy Army as a borderline top 25/30 defense, but being 1st/2nd in yards/points allowed doesn't make them them a top-2 defense-  and I know that's not what anyone is arguing. But saying numbers/rankings put Bama's defense closer to ours than Army's is just misrepresenting the numbers. YPG isn't the measure of a defense. 

 

[Wistrom Disciple]

22 minutes ago, Husker in WI said:

Bama has played Mercer and Citadel in the past few years, but yeah it's way different against legitimate P5 teams. I like the advanced rankings because they try and account who you play - the top 3 scoring defense last year were Marshall, Army, and Air Force. No one in their right mind thinks those were the top 3 defense, and rankings (F+ is the one I can find easily) agrees - they are 21st, 30th, and 45th respectively.

 

Bama was actually 12th by F+, which is more believable to me. YPG (looks like where the Bama @32 number is coming from) is a bad way to judge a defense.  I'd buy Army as a borderline top 25/30 defense, but being 1st/2nd in yards/points allowed doesn't make them them a top-2 defense-  and I know that's not what anyone is arguing. But saying numbers/rankings put Bama's defense closer to ours than Army's is just misrepresenting the numbers. YPG isn't the measure of a defense. 

 

I agree with you 100%. "Total Defense" as defined by the NCAA does appear to use yards as the sole factor for ranking (Source). Gets back to the core point, stats-based rankings alone are not enough to justify a good or bad defense as several other factors play a part. I would argue our defense last year would be a top 25-30 if special teams and the offense didn't put us in such poor positions as often as they did.  

[BigRedBuster]

Just like stats in anything you do, sports, work..etc. they can be a useful tool, but a single stat alone doesn't tell you much.

 

But, an improvement in the stat is a good sign.

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

On 5/31/2021 at 2:29 PM, Wistrom Disciple said:

Although I like seeing us high in the rankings and what not, I wouldn't get too wrapped up in them at this point. The defensive product on the field is night and day better. With the exception of a couple games, the defense has been the clear bright spot in the program. 
 

As far as rankings go, National Champs Alabama were 32nd in the country last year after giving up over 30 points just twice. Ahead of them were the likes of UAB, Army, Georgia Southern & Western Kentucky. The key balance we have failed to establish so far is complimentary football across the three facets of the game. This largely falls on the failures with the offense and special teams. Think about how many times opponents started on our side of the 50 due to poor special teams, offensive turnovers, etc. The best way to get this ship righted is if the offense reduce errors, control the clock and maintain balance for the aggressive defense Chins wants to run. Special teams need to get a punter straightened out and coverage group that will contain. That happens and we're in a much better position as a program and the rankings should rise up.

 

Bama finished 32nd last year and that was considered to be a down year for them defensively. That's what I'm hoping for us in the near future.

[Nebraska55fan]

Most people can see Chins has improved every year, without using a bunch of metrics. No one here claims his defense is great, just moving in the right direction. 

 

Too often our offense and special teams have put the defense in a very tough spot. More and more, the defense has risen to the occasion and bailed the offense and special teams out. Unfortunately there has been just too many of these layups for the opposition- and we still have a tough time closing games out or getting very critical stops- AGAIN because the defense gets put in so many tough spots. Until we can close games out/get critical stops, consistently put pressure on QBs, cause more turnovers and  get DBs who somehow understand that blocking is not tackling- Im resistent to calling our defense great.