Mickey Joseph Hired As WR’s Coach, AHC & Passing Game Coordinator

[Loebarth]

1 hour ago, Undone said:

 

I think they're coming out with a pill for this...

lol, It was supposed to say ineptness, not sure how inadequate popped. Almost the same but "the pill" comment was AWESOME!!!

 

[Mavric]

2 hours ago, Red Five said:

Don't forget about how terrible we are at keeping those highly rated recruits on campus.

 

We had 10 4 stars in the 2020 class.  7 were gone within 2 years (Betts, Greene, Fleming, Gray, Joseph, Francios, Morrison).

 

Losing a bunch of the highly-ranked guys has definitely not helped.  

 

But I think the bigger issue is that we kept striking out at the same positions, especially on offense.

 

From 2015-2018, we didn't recruit enough contributors to fill an entire offensive starting lineup.  Four years, couldn't put 11 guys on the field.

 

And we were particularly hurt by that on the offensive line and wide receiver.  Over that stretch we only got MFarniok and Jaimes who were real contributors, kind of Sichterman and maybe Bando yet.  Then we didn't do particularly well in the class of 2019 - jury still out Benhart, Banks and Piper.  Then 2020 is a maybe from Corcoran.  That's six straight classes with not much to show for them.  Unless a couple of those guys can put it together yet.

 

And it's worse at WR.  We're lucky Stanley Morgan stayed committed after the coaching change because the only other WR we got from 2015-2018 was Spielman and we know how that turned out.  Then 2019-2021 only netted us two years of Wan'Dale unless Brown ends up panning out.  Seven years and we've had one guy (maybe two) who contributed and finished his career here.

 

That's probably 8 out of the 11 positions on the offensive side of the ball that we've repeatedly struck out on recruiting for waaaay too long.

[Treand3]

3 hours ago, knapplc said:

 

We need to focus on turning some of those losses into victories. 

Absolutely the little details will make a huge difference.

 

I'm not sure what's so funny about what I said, when you are losing games by single scores, it's due to not executing finite details and less about recruiting. Recruiting has little to do with coming out flat against Illinois - where your 4th year captain fields a punt at his own 5 yard line, another 4th year player earning a taunting penalty in the same game or not making Illinois use their TOs to go into the half tied at 9, your punter kicking in the wrong direction in East Lansing, not electing to take 3 points in your opening drive against Michigan, your ST unit giving up yet another KO return for a TD(see '19) or your 4th year capitan on defense refusing to actually tackle Brelon Allen giving up a long TD in Madison or your punting unit giving up a blocked kick against Iowa.

 

Of course there are moments when your kicking unit can't make FGs (OU), AM fumbles the ball against Michigan in the waning moments or throws a whopping 4 INTs against Purdue, takes an ill advised safety in Minneapolis or we just don't have to pass rush to get to Stroud but recruiting isn't the reason we are bowl-less these last 4 seasons.

[BIG ERN]

3 hours ago, Undone said:

 

I agree, man.

 

Keyshawn Greene could have been a big difference maker, and Betts has been a loss. Morrison kind of got lost in the shuffle and wasn't standing out, sort of the same potentially with Fleming. The two DB's don't hurt as bad in my opinion.

 

But you're completely right on how it takes down the averages. We'd just have to have a metric to compare that attrition against some kind of national average.

 

I'm going to say that Greg Austin & Frost did a terrible job with the O-line, special teams has been a disaster for three seasons (outside of some better field goal kicking in 2020), and we generally just seem to buckle when the game is on the line. In terms of the roster we fielded last year we absolutely should have won at least 6 games.

 

I don't buy any kind of narrative that our roster last year on paper screams "this was a 3 win team."

I'll say for the 100th time that Frost's biggest mistake was brining along his friends to coach. Specifically Austin, Verduzco, Held & Lubick. What a complete waste of offensive assistants. The stability has been terrible by Frost as well game by game. Need to hammer home the details as we all know. So many random players out there from week to week over the past 4 years. 

 

I think our "talent" has been over stated many times IMO due to some skill players who rarely stick around most times. Again, just build some stability and this thing can take back off. 

[Husker in WI]

12 minutes ago, BIG ERN said:

I'll say for the 100th time that Frost's biggest mistake was brining along his friends to coach. Specifically Austin, Verduzco, Held & Lubick. What a complete waste of offensive assistants. The stability has been terrible by Frost as well game by game. Need to hammer home the details as we all know. So many random players out there from week to week over the past 4 years. 

 

I think our "talent" has been over stated many times IMO due to some skill players who rarely stick around most times. Again, just build some stability and this thing can take back off. 

 

I agree, but let's not pretend this was obvious from the beginning. Yes, people had concerns with Frost bringing his entire staff at the time - but those concerns were mostly around the defensive side, particularly Chinander and Ruud. Verduzco and Frost had turned Milton from an undersized nobody into a Heisman candidate. They put up more points on Auburn than anybody else that year, and there wasn't really a weak spot on the offense. In hindsight Held liked to mess with the RB depth chart randomly even then, but it had worked for them. Lubick is the one that sticks out as likely a bad hire at the time, without needing hindsight. 

 

Now it shouldn't have taken almost 4 years to realize those guys weren't cutting it, and again Lubick was a miss from the start. But there was very little reason to consider not bringing the offensive staff to begin with.

[Mavric]

14 minutes ago, Husker in WI said:

I agree, but let's not pretend this was obvious from the beginning. Yes, people had concerns with Frost bringing his entire staff at the time - but those concerns were mostly around the defensive side, particularly Chinander and Ruud. Verduzco and Frost had turned Milton from an undersized nobody into a Heisman candidate. They put up more points on Auburn than anybody else that year, and there wasn't really a weak spot on the offense. In hindsight Held liked to mess with the RB depth chart randomly even then, but it had worked for them. Lubick is the one that sticks out as likely a bad hire at the time, without needing hindsight. 

 

Now it shouldn't have taken almost 4 years to realize those guys weren't cutting it, and again Lubick was a miss from the start. But there was very little reason to consider not bringing the offensive staff to begin with.

 

Agree with this.  The only one that now seems odd is Austin as there seems to have been conflict about scheme/style.  It's odd that hadn't been figured out well before a change was made.

 

For all the complaining (and firings) on the offensive side of the ball, we were the #22 offense in the country in yards per game last year.  We were #47 in yards allowed per game.  Yet people tend to talk like we were great on defense and terrible on offense.

[Farms]

10 minutes ago, Mavric said:

 

Agree with this.  The only one that now seems odd is Austin as there seems to have been conflict about scheme/style.  It's odd that hadn't been figured out well before a change was made.

 

For all the complaining (and firings) on the offensive side of the ball, we were the #22 offense in the country in yards per game last year.  We were #47 in yards allowed per game.  Yet people tend to talk like we were great on defense and terrible on offense.

You're right we weren't terrible on offense, pretty good actually.  We just weren't good where it matters most, scoring points.  And quite frankly our field position sucked half the time and when you're offense consistently has to go further down the field it's just more time to make a turnover or a drive killing penalty.  There's plenty of blame to go around nonetheless. 

[Mavric]

2 minutes ago, Farms said:

You're right we weren't terrible on offense, pretty good actually.  We just weren't good where it matters most, scoring points.  And quite frankly our field position sucked half the time and when you're offense consistently has to go further down the field it's just more time to make a turnover or a drive killing penalty.  There's plenty of blame to go around nonetheless. 

 

Yeah, as I've pointed out several times we were actually decent at scoring touchdowns.  But we sucked at field goals which left a lot of points on the board - and led to more difficult game management decisions.

 

I would love to see some stats about average starting field positions because I would guess we were near the bottom there which - as you said - makes scoring a lot tougher.

[Fru]

Frost's offenses have always racked up a lot of yards. But... 

 

In 2021, tied for 67th in turnovers lost at 18

https://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/team/461

 

and Red Zone Offense coming in at 106th  

https://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/team/703/p3

 

Have to imagine that even moderate improvement in both of these categories along with improved overall Special Teams would yield a 7 or 8 win season. That is, assuming the offense maintains potency in other areas and no major drop off on Defense. 

[Red Five]

4 hours ago, Mavric said:

But I think the bigger issue is that we kept striking out at the same positions, especially on offense.

 

I posted this a few months ago:

 

Looking at high school kids in the 2018-2020 classes, we signed 5 RBs, 12 RBs, and 2 TEs.  Only 1 RB, 1 WR, and 1 TE remain on the team.  Only 7 of those 19 ever played more than 5 games.

 

HS RBs 

2018 Maurice Washington - 18 games / 1136 yards / kicked off

2019 Rahmir Johnson - 22 games / 831 yards

2019 Ronald Thompkins - 2 games / 34 yards / transferred

2020 Sevion Morrison - 6 games / 129 yards / transferred

2020 Marvin Scott - 8 games / 154 yards / transferred

 

HS WRs

2018 Andre Hunt - 0 games / 0 yards / kicked off

2018 Miles Jones - 1 game / 26 yards / transferred

2018 Justin McGriff - 0 games / 0 yards / transferred

2018 Dominick Watt - 0 games / 0 yards / never made to campus

2019 Wandale Robinson - 18 games / 1494 yards / transferred

2019 Darien Chase - 1 game / 13 yards / transferred

2019 Demariyon Houston - 0 games / 0 yards / transferred

2019 Jamie Nance - 0 games / 0 yards / transferred

2020 Zavier Betts - 18 games / 526 yards / ??????

2020 Marcus Fleming - 1 game / 75 yards / transferred

2020 Alante Brown - 11 games / 89 yards

2020 Will Nixon - 1 game / 5 yards / transferred

 

HS TEs

2018 Katerion Legrone - 1 game / 8 yards / kicked off

2019 Chris Hickman - 3 games / 90 yards

[Decked]

51 minutes ago, Red Five said:

 

I posted this a few months ago:

 

Looking at high school kids in the 2018-2020 classes, we signed 5 RBs, 12 RBs, and 2 TEs.  Only 1 RB, 1 WR, and 1 TE remain on the team.  Only 7 of those 19 ever played more than 5 games.

 

HS RBs 

2018 Maurice Washington - 18 games / 1136 yards / kicked off

2019 Rahmir Johnson - 22 games / 831 yards

2019 Ronald Thompkins - 2 games / 34 yards / transferred

2020 Sevion Morrison - 6 games / 129 yards / transferred

2020 Marvin Scott - 8 games / 154 yards / transferred

 

HS WRs

2018 Andre Hunt - 0 games / 0 yards / kicked off

2018 Miles Jones - 1 game / 26 yards / transferred

2018 Justin McGriff - 0 games / 0 yards / transferred

2018 Dominick Watt - 0 games / 0 yards / never made to campus

2019 Wandale Robinson - 18 games / 1494 yards / transferred

2019 Darien Chase - 1 game / 13 yards / transferred

2019 Demariyon Houston - 0 games / 0 yards / transferred

2019 Jamie Nance - 0 games / 0 yards / transferred

2020 Zavier Betts - 18 games / 526 yards / ??????

2020 Marcus Fleming - 1 game / 75 yards / transferred

2020 Alante Brown - 11 games / 89 yards

2020 Will Nixon - 1 game / 5 yards / transferred

 

HS TEs

2018 Katerion Legrone - 1 game / 8 yards / kicked off

2019 Chris Hickman - 3 games / 90 yards

That is almost so bad you have to try 

[runningblind]

5 hours ago, Mavric said:

 

Agree with this.  The only one that now seems odd is Austin as there seems to have been conflict about scheme/style.  It's odd that hadn't been figured out well before a change was made.

 

For all the complaining (and firings) on the offensive side of the ball, we were the #22 offense in the country in yards per game last year.  We were #47 in yards allowed per game.  Yet people tend to talk like we were great on defense and terrible on offense.

We were #70 in scoring offense,  and #36 in scoring defense.  Yards don't necessarily matter,  a lot of teams move the ball between the 20s and give up yards between them also.  Where it matters we were much better on defense, hence the talk and why that talk makes sense. 

[Mavric]

48 minutes ago, runningblind said:

We were #70 in scoring offense,  and #36 in scoring defense.  Yards don't necessarily matter,  a lot of teams move the ball between the 20s and give up yards between them also.  Where it matters we were much better on defense, hence the talk and why that talk makes sense. 

 

Scoring is what matters as far as winning games go but it doesn't mean it's the best metric to see how good an offense is.

 

One offense drives 80 yards and misses a field goal.

Another offense gets the ball on the 10, goes backwards 8 yards and makes a field goal.

The offense that scored was far from the better performance.

 

Scoring doesn't happen in a vacuum.  A lot goes into it that the offense - or defense - doesn't always control.  Yards are not really affected by the other phases of the game.

[Lorewarn]

2 hours ago, Mavric said:

Scoring doesn't happen in a vacuum.  A lot goes into it that the offense - or defense - doesn't always control.  Yards are not really affected by the other phases of the game.

 

 

Yards are certainly affected by field position.

 

Would we still have been the #22 offense if we had a #25 punt return team?

[Red Five]

Here are our last 26 WR scholarship signees.    I'd say we recruited 5.5 contributors since 2012 (I'm counting JD and calling Wandale a 0.5).

 

Bo - Westy, Zo Moore, DPE

Bo/Riley transition class- Stanley

Riley - JD

Frost - Wandale

 

2012 Jordan Westerkamp - 45 games / 2502 yards

2012 Alonzo Moore - 33 games / 1145 yards

2013 Kevin Gladney - 7 games / 0 yards / kicked off

2014 DeMornay Pierson-El - 40 games / 1376 yards

2014 Jariah Tolbert - 0 games / 0 yards / transferred

2014 Glenn Irons - 0 games / 0 yards / transferred

2014 Monte Harrison - 0 games / 0 yards / never made it to campus

2015 Stanley Morgan - 47 games / 2753 yards

2015 Lavan Alston - 0 games / 0 yards / transferred

2016 JD Spielman - 33 games / 2674 yards / transferred

2016 Derrion Grim - 0 games / 0 yards / transferred

2017 Tyjon Lindsey - 13 games / 111 yards / transferred

2017 Jaevon McQuitty - 9 games / 14 yards / transferred

2017 Keyshawn Johnson - 0 games / 0 yards / transferred

2018 Andre Hunt - 0 games / 0 yards / kicked off

2018 Miles Jones - 1 game / 26 yards / transferred

2018 Justin McGriff - 0 games / 0 yards / transferred

2018 Dominick Watt - 0 games / 0 yards / never made to campus

2019 Wandale Robinson - 18 games / 1494 yards / transferred

2019 Darien Chase - 1 game / 13 yards / transferred

2019 Demariyon Houston - 0 games / 0 yards / transferred

2019 Jamie Nance - 0 games / 0 yards / transferred

2020 Zavier Betts - 18 games / 526 yards / ??????

2020 Marcus Fleming - 1 game / 75 yards / transferred

2020 Alante Brown - 11 games / 89 yards

2020 Will Nixon - 1 game / 5 yards / transferred