Roe v Wade overturned????? Draft says so

[teachercd]

And again, I 100% get what Pro-lifers are saying.  But if you make exceptions for certain "cases" no matter how rare or horrible...then you want choice. 

[TGHusker]

17 minutes ago, teachercd said:

Again, I totally get your argument, I do and I actually like how you argue your thoughts!

We are both teachers.  Me at the adjunct level - Mgmt courses.     Great minds tracking together (In my NOT SO humble opinion).  We don't have to agree on everything to be agreeable and to understand each other.  The problem with our politics today is that most politicians think opposites are adversaries - people bent on destroying 'us'.  When opposites are actually our friends - meant to help us to understand more fully and develop us more fully.  Life is full of these opposites.  If we fight against them, (Kick against the goads in our life) then we won't grow.  Our Damascus Road experience will be meaningless and self defeating.  I've gained much by listening to the opposing voices on HB - it has helped me to get out of the far right silo that I was in. I hoped I have helped others who have been in the far left silo as well.

 

Apostle Paul explains his Damascus Road experience to the Roman King Agrippa in Acts 26

Quote

⁹ “I too was convinced that I ought to do all that was possible to oppose the name of Jesus of Nazareth. ¹⁰ And that is just what I did in Jerusalem. On the authority of the chief priests I put many of the Lord’s people in prison, and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them. ¹¹ Many a time I went from one synagogue to another to have them punished, and I tried to force them to blaspheme. I was so obsessed with persecuting them that I even hunted them down in foreign cities.

¹² “On one of these journeys I was going to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests. ¹³ About noon, King Agrippa, as I was on the road, I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, blazing around me and my companions. ¹⁴ We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic,^[a] ‘Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’

¹⁵ “Then I asked, ‘Who are you, Lord?’

“ ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’ the Lord replied. ¹⁶ ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me. ¹⁷ I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them ¹⁸ to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

⁹ “So then, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the vision from heaven. ²⁰ First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds. ²¹ That is why some Jews seized me in the temple courts and tried to kill me. ²² But God has helped me to this very day; so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen—

 

 

[funhusker]

3 hours ago, TGHusker said:

That is where I fall as well -- except the Central NE part  

Safe:  Abortion facilities should be regulated to the same standard as other medical facilities. 

Legal: for the issues you mentioned  - life of mother, rape/incest, horrific birth defects --  how does one define what is horrific is another slippery slope debate - some greatly  gifted people have been born blind, handicapped, etc and have contributed to the betterment of society - we didn't recognize their giftedness until much later of course.  So the value of a life shouldn't be judged on their utility to the society.  

Rare: 12-15 weeks  - I would lean towards 12 weeks.  Some researchers say pain can be felt by the fetus after 12 weeks but others conclude after 15 weeks.  Heartbeat as early as 6 weeks.  6 weeks is too early however for those conditions mentioned above.    

Again, “pro-lifers” really need to gather more information before electing people to create “problife” laws…

 

The heart doesn’t even begin to take the shape of a heart until around week 10.  It doesn’t actually start “beating” until much later.

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna24435

[TGHusker]

25 minutes ago, funhusker said:

Again, “pro-lifers” really need to gather more information before electing people to create “problife” laws…

 

The heart doesn’t even begin to take the shape of a heart until around week 10.  It doesn’t actually start “beating” until much later.

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna24435

Good info here from the article you posted :

Quote

 

 

 

It’s around 10 weeks of pregnancy that the embryo becomes a fetus. It remains a fetus until birth.

But defining a heartbeat is tricky even after 10 weeks, said Dr. Nisha Verma, an OB/GYN who spoke on behalf of the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology, because the heart continues to develop over the course of the pregnancy. 

It’s not until around 17 to 20 weeks, when the four chambers of the heart have developed and can be detected on an ultrasound, that the term heartbeat is accurate, according to ACOG.

An emotional touchpoint 

While what exists at six weeks isn’t a beating heart, pregnant people hear something during an ultrasound early in pregnancy. 

“Medically speaking, when I put a stethoscope against a patient’s heart, that ‘lub dub’ sound is made by the opening and closing of the cardiac valve,” Verma said. “At six weeks, those valves don’t exist.” 

In fact, the sound pregnant people hear during ultrasounds at six weeks is entirely manufactured by the ultrasound machine, Verma said. “It’s an electrical pulse that’s translated into the sound we’re hearing from the ultrasound machine.” 

What’s more, the electrical pulse from the embryo almost always can be detected only by using a transvaginal ultrasound, and it doesn’t yet show up on an ultrasound of the mother’s abdomen. 

But that’s where how doctors talk to patients comes in, Verma said. Although she wouldn’t consider any embryo at six weeks to have a heartbeat, she said doctors use language that patients can connect with, which often isn’t medical language, and that the use of the language in a doctor’s office plays an important role in how doctors communicate with patients. 

For example, two doctors speaking to each other would use the term “myocardial infarction,” whereas a doctor speaking with a patient would use the term “heart attack.” 

“I think it’s OK for people with a desired pregnancy to go in at six weeks and see that flickering and feel connected to that as a heartbeat,” Verma said. “There’s no issue with using the term ‘heartbeat’ on its own. The issue is using that incorrect term to regulate the practice of medicine and impose these artificial time frames to regulate abortion. At the end of the day, an abortion is a decision that should be made between a patient and their health care provider.”

Prager said the language and technology used during pregnancy, even in the doctor’s office, was designed for people who want to continue their pregnancies.

“If you are invested in the pregnancy, you want to anthropomorphize that pregnancy as soon as possible, and that’s a heartbeat for people,” Prager said.

 

 

[funhusker]

6 minutes ago, TGHusker said:

Good info here from the article you posted :

 

I think a lot of pro-life people formed opinions based on misinformation (as the article states, even drs can be partly blamed) and a lot of them are creating policy with those opinions.

[TGHusker]

29 minutes ago, funhusker said:

I think a lot of pro-life people formed opinions based on misinformation (as the article states, even drs can be partly blamed) and a lot of them are creating policy with those opinions.

Well for sure, some of the very 'hard' policies coming out of Texas, Oklahoma (my state) and others are a miss-application of the facts.  And also, as @teachercd said previously, I paraphrase  'political correction' can force any of us to be 'all in' on one side of the issue without regard to the facts.  Thus keeping us in our political silos.  That is how the GOP has kept pro-lifers 'on the plantation' - keeping us from exploring other options and keeping us from productive dialogue with those who are on the other side of the issue. 

[BigRedBuster]

 

[TGHusker]

You know it is just like health care reform.  The GOP never really wanted to get it changed.  They just wanted the issue to campaign against.  So when they had the House, Senate, WH - they didn't get it done under Trump.  They had no plan - only rhetoric.   The same wt RvW.  The GOP never really thought it would get over turned.  The traditional GOP leader really didn't care about social issues and pro-life social issues in particular.  They talked a good talk to keep pro-lifers on the plantation but again they were not prepared for the SC to overturn Roe.  Thus, we now see all of these collateral issues that need to be addressed.  There was no planning on the GOP side to proactively address these issues prior to the court ruling.  Thus everyone has this  'I don't know" answer. 

2 hours ago, BigRedBuster said:

 

 

[funhusker]

3 minutes ago, TGHusker said:

You know it is just like health care reform.  The GOP never really wanted to get it changed.  They just wanted the issue to campaign against.  So when they had the House, Senate, WH - they didn't get it done under Trump.  They had no plan - only rhetoric.   The same wt RvW.  The GOP never really thought it would get over turned.  The traditional GOP leader really didn't care about social issues and pro-life social issues in particular.  They talked a good talk to keep pro-lifers on the plantation but again they were not prepared for the SC to overturn Roe.  Thus, we now see all of these collateral issues that need to be addressed.  There was no planning on the GOP side to proactively address these issues prior to the court ruling.  Thus everyone has this  'I don't know" answer. 

 

It’s willful freaking ignorance on their part.  I’m a middle school shop teacher and I could see these issues long ago.  They are inept in everything they do.  Except breaking things.

[BigRedBuster]

7 minutes ago, TGHusker said:

You know it is just like health care reform.  The GOP never really wanted to get it changed.  They just wanted the issue to campaign against.  So when they had the House, Senate, WH - they didn't get it done under Trump.  They had no plan - only rhetoric.   The same wt RvW.  The GOP never really thought it would get over turned.  The traditional GOP leader really didn't care about social issues and pro-life social issues in particular.  They talked a good talk to keep pro-lifers on the plantation but again they were not prepared for the SC to overturn Roe.  Thus, we now see all of these collateral issues that need to be addressed.  There was no planning on the GOP side to proactively address these issues prior to the court ruling.  Thus everyone has this  'I don't know" answer. 

 

That's what you get when you combine a pathetic orange man in the WH and Corrupt Mitch in congress.

 

Nothing is thought out past the ends of their noses and the negative effects of their actions are never even considered.

[TGHusker]

2 minutes ago, funhusker said:

It’s willful freaking ignorance on their part.  I’m a middle school shop teacher and I could see these issues long ago.  They are inept in everything they do.  Except breaking things.

Actual willful deceit not ignorance.   They knew all along that they didn't have a plan and weren't going make a plan.  If their mind was set on overturning Roe, it could have happened years ago - even by legislative action.   Perhaps in the same way, the pro-choice crowd could have codified Roe by legislative action but failed to do so.  I think both sides wanted to retain it as a political red meat issue to help them raise money.  What if they  had worked together and "solved' this issue??  - then there would be no urgent fund raising  letters talking about how the other side is just pure evil.

 

[Notre Dame Joe]

On 7/2/2022 at 5:49 AM, DevoHusker said:

https://www.northwestgeorgianews.com/catoosa_walker_news/opinion/columns/steven-roberts-can-abortion-save-democrats/article_5a605f6a-f885-11ec-bc1f-e7dfc1ce6ceb.html?utm_campaign=blox&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social

 

One of the minor benefits far down the trough is that I have always wanted to see the Ds run on the abortion ticket. I don't believe that a lot of the I'm pro choice people are actually motivated by a politician saying the A-word.  Although I do believe they have people for that. 

[suh_fan93]

 

[JJ Husker]

5 hours ago, suh_fan93 said:

 

I wonder what constitutes “necessary” in NC. We have a darned good idea what wouldn’t be deemed necessary in OK and TX.

[BigRedBuster]