Bo and Beck

[The Dude]

Maybe not. But it is too complex for our players to pick up and be on the same page consistently. And we're cooking up new routes for Purdue when our receivers struggle running the routes that were already in the playbook.

Players? Or one player? We seem to have significantly more issues with throws being nowhere near receivers - not to mention lower completion percentage - in the last year and a half.

I get it. You think everything is Tommy Armstrong's fault. Thing is, his play is a direct reflection of Beck's ability to develop QBs and teach his offense. It's his job to elvaluate strengths and weaknesses of his players and construct gameplans around them.

 

[Mavric]

Maybe not. But it is too complex for our players to pick up and be on the same page consistently. And we're cooking up new routes for Purdue when our receivers struggle running the routes that were already in the playbook.

Players? Or one player? We seem to have significantly more issues with throws being nowhere near receivers - not to mention lower completion percentage - in the last year and a half.

I get it. You think everything is Tommy Armstrong's fault. Thing is, his play is a direct reflection of Beck's ability to develop QBs and teach his offense. It's his job to elvaluate strengths and weaknesses of his players and construct gameplans around them.

Should I come back with you think everything is Beck's (or whichever coach's) fault? Somehow I don't think that adds to the discussion.

No. I don't think everything is TA's fault. But I said since spring ball that his biggest problems are he has sloppy footwork and doesn't see the field well. If you'd like I could dig the thread up where I went through this in March and got ripped for it for a couple pages. I'm not trying to be a know-it-all. But there are things that aren't too hard to see if you don't just automatically defend the player and blame anyone else. I just think a lot of people will do anything to blame anyone but the players. Yes, the coaches have to coach and recruit. But the players have to take what they've been taught and apply it. Many seem to assume that it wasn't coached at all if it doesn't happen on the field.

I don't think anyone would argue that TA threw a bunch of passes last year that were nowhere near any receiver. Most people - myself included - chalked it up to not getting as many reps with the first team before Martinez got hurt, being young, etc. But he's had plenty of time to get familiar now. I could be more forgiving of plays like the two picks to Westerkamp against Purdue if there wasn't a mountain of other evidence that shows that TA isn't a very good passer. He struggles to complete screen passes to both WRs and RBs. He struggles with short hooks and outs. He threw an interception targeting a receiver that was three yards out of bounds for crying out loud - I feel pretty confident in saying that he wasn't coached to do that. Not to mention the amount of times he's tried to force it into a covered receiver when others are open.

People like to complain about throwing down the field so much but if you're QB has a very hard time on short passes, aren't you playing to his strengths by throwing longer passes? I think Beck has tried to call plays that are "easier" passes and will build some confidence but those are the passes that TA is worst at so there isn't a lot left to do. Purdue didn't play any deep safeties for a lot of the game. Part of it was the wind and part of it is that's exactly how I'd defend us - load the box to stop the run and dare us to throw.

 

[NUinID]

Maybe not. But it is too complex for our players to pick up and be on the same page consistently. And we're cooking up new routes for Purdue when our receivers struggle running the routes that were already in the playbook.

Players? Or one player? We seem to have significantly more issues with throws being nowhere near receivers - not to mention lower completion percentage - in the last year and a half.

I get it. You think everything is Tommy Armstrong's fault. Thing is, his play is a direct reflection of Beck's ability to develop QBs and teach his offense. It's his job to elvaluate strengths and weaknesses of his players and construct gameplans around them.

Should I come back with you think everything is Beck's (or whichever coach's) fault? Somehow I don't think that adds to the discussion.

No. I don't think everything is TA's fault. But I said since spring ball that his biggest problems are he has sloppy footwork and doesn't see the field well. If you'd like I could dig the thread up where I went through this in March and got ripped for it for a couple pages. I'm not trying to be a know-it-all. But there are things that aren't too hard to see if you don't just automatically defend the player and blame anyone else. I just think a lot of people will do anything to blame anyone but the players. Yes, the coaches have to coach and recruit. But the players have to take what they've been taught and apply it. Many seem to assume that it wasn't coached at all if it doesn't happen on the field.

I don't think anyone would argue that TA threw a bunch of passes last year that were nowhere near any receiver. Most people - myself included - chalked it up to not getting as many reps with the first team before Martinez got hurt, being young, etc. But he's had plenty of time to get familiar now. I could be more forgiving of plays like the two picks to Westerkamp against Purdue if there wasn't a mountain of other evidence that shows that TA isn't a very good passer. He struggles to complete screen passes to both WRs and RBs. He struggles with short hooks and outs. He threw an interception targeting a receiver that was three yards out of bounds for crying out loud - I feel pretty confident in saying that he wasn't coached to do that. Not to mention the amount of times he's tried to force it into a covered receiver when others are open.

People like to complain about throwing down the field so much but if you're QB has a very hard time on short passes, aren't you playing to his strengths by throwing longer passes? I think Beck has tried to call plays that are "easier" passes and will build some confidence but those are the passes that TA is worst at so there isn't a lot left to do. Purdue didn't play any deep safeties for a lot of the game. Part of it was the wind and part of it is that's exactly how I'd defend us - load the box to stop the run and dare us to throw.

Nice post, I agree with you on TA footwork and his seeing of the field. His footwork is poor and a big reason for it is that he has such a strong arm he has never needed good footwork.

As far as reading defenses, he probably has too many reads. Most likely Beck has put in about 3 different options for their routes on most pass plays. If there are 4 guys in the pattern that is 12 options. That is a lot of reading. Even if they only have 2 options that is still 8 different things he is reading.

He needs less reads, 3 options on every pass play is plenty. Primary and 2 secondary routes go through the reads and get rid of the ball or run.

 

[The Dude]

I agree he has sloppy footwork and poor field awareness. Which is why it doesn't make a whole heap of sense to me to add new passing route wrinkles midseason when we could be trying to be more creative with the running game - the strength of our offense.

I'd like to go back to being one of those teams ornery enough to run against a stacked box. Granted, it's not easy to do, but this new age idea that it can't be done is annoying. It can absolutely be done, but you'll need more in the repertoire than some stretch and inside zone, and the occassional read option.

Also Mav, I'm sorry you were torn apart for your opinion, but don't take it out on Armstrong by trying to "prove" how bad he is all the time. I think your anger is a little misplaced.

 

[zoogs]

As far as reading defenses, he probably has too many reads. Most likely Beck has put in about 3 different options for their routes on most pass plays. If there are 4 guys in the pattern that is 12 options. That is a lot of reading. Even if they only have 2 options that is still 8 different things he is reading.

He needs less reads, 3 options on every pass play is plenty. Primary and 2 secondary routes go through the reads and get rid of the ball or run.

I don't think this is accurate. From what Mavric's said in the past the way it works is the QB makes a pre-snap decision to go with one side of the field or another. There are going to be anywhere from one to three receivers running option routes on the side selected. Depending on what kind of coverage the defense comes out with, the QB will decide where to throw the ball.

The WRs are also making this decision, and assuming QB & WR have made the same decision and no WRs have run into one another, the WR will be there when the ball is thrown.

Sometimes this works beautifully, and other times it doesn't. In Tommy's defense, the times it hasn't has appeared to be the WR's fault a lot of the time. However, the jury's still out on how well he is reading these coverages himself, both pre and post snap.

Bell & Westerkamp both need to step it up for the next game. This last one was uncharacteristically poor for both of them.

 

[RedRedJarvisRedwine]

As far as reading defenses, he probably has too many reads. Most likely Beck has put in about 3 different options for their routes on most pass plays. If there are 4 guys in the pattern that is 12 options. That is a lot of reading. Even if they only have 2 options that is still 8 different things he is reading.

He needs less reads, 3 options on every pass play is plenty. Primary and 2 secondary routes go through the reads and get rid of the ball or run.

I don't think this is accurate. From what Mavric's said in the past the way it works is the QB makes a pre-snap decision to go with one side of the field or another. There are going to be anywhere from one to three receivers running option routes on the side selected. Depending on what kind of coverage the defense comes out with, the QB will decide where to throw the ball.

The WRs are also making this decision, and assuming QB & WR have made the same decision and no WRs have run into one another, the WR will be there when the ball is thrown.

Sometimes this works beautifully, and other times it doesn't. In Tommy's defense, the times it hasn't has appeared to be the WR's fault a lot of the time. However, the jury's still out on how well he is reading these coverages himself, both pre and post snap.

Bell & Westerkamp both need to step it up for the next game. This last one was uncharacteristically poor for both of them.

To me one of the keys to a good passing offense is the ability to read the safeties and manipulate them with the Qbs eyes. Predetermining one side of the field presnap seems to be a detriment to success. Having the type of run game we have should keep safeties guessing all game. Id love to know how many of TAs ints come against zone coverage versus man to man. Im guessing that most come against a zone.

 

[NUinID]

As far as reading defenses, he probably has too many reads. Most likely Beck has put in about 3 different options for their routes on most pass plays. If there are 4 guys in the pattern that is 12 options. That is a lot of reading. Even if they only have 2 options that is still 8 different things he is reading.

He needs less reads, 3 options on every pass play is plenty. Primary and 2 secondary routes go through the reads and get rid of the ball or run.

I don't think this is accurate. From what Mavric's said in the past the way it works is the QB makes a pre-snap decision to go with one side of the field or another. There are going to be anywhere from one to three receivers running option routes on the side selected. Depending on what kind of coverage the defense comes out with, the QB will decide where to throw the ball.

The WRs are also making this decision, and assuming QB & WR have made the same decision and no WRs have run into one another, the WR will be there when the ball is thrown.

Sometimes this works beautifully, and other times it doesn't. In Tommy's defense, the times it hasn't has appeared to be the WR's fault a lot of the time. However, the jury's still out on how well he is reading these coverages himself, both pre and post snap.

Bell & Westerkamp both need to step it up for the next game. This last one was uncharacteristically poor for both of them.

You basically just restated what I said. He has multiple reads be it on one side or the other. The receiver is not running a predetermined route he is running any multitude of routes thus giving the QB multiple reads. Even if he is only looking one way, which he may be for primary, he still has stuff going on the side of the field.

I am not saying it is good or bad. It is very hard for a QB to read coverage and pick between multiple targets. I am not mad at TA if he is not great at, he is probably better at it than the back up QBs though.

I think he does a decent job for the most part. But, he could do better with even less options to worry about.

IMO he really hasn't played that bad this year.

He didn't play well against Purdue in the passing game. Most likely for multiple reasons. The wind was blowing 30mph during the game that effects things a lot. His safety blanket AA went down early that effected his game and frankly effected the whole offense. They weren't ready for that. Beck didn't call a great game either. Combine that with a Purdue team that does throw a lot of scheme at a team.

It is not a trend IMO he actually has played pretty well most of the season. He didn't have a great game against MSU but man his receivers flat out dropped about 5 balls that would have helped.

He is what he is bad footwork and some bad reads. But, IMO Beck could help by making the passing game a little less complex. Oregon, Auburn, and other teams that run similar offenses throw a lot more quick stuff with quick reads. He could run more WR screens I was never a big fan before, but the offense has improved greatly at this. Instead of seeing it 2x a game how about 6 or 7 a game. Westy and Bell are both good at it get DPE involved in this game also.

Just my 2 cents

 

[BigRedBuster]

Just my opinion.

I like wr screens but the more you run them the chance of a pick 6 goes up.

 

[The Dude]

How do we know we run exclusively option routes? If that's true then I would definately be of the opinion the passing game is far too complex for its own good.

 

[zoogs]

You basically just restated what I said. He has multiple reads be it on one side or the other. The receiver is not running a predetermined route he is running any multitude of routes thus giving the QB multiple reads. Even if he is only looking one way, which he may be for primary, he still has stuff going on the side of the field.

I think we're still understanding it differently.

After the play goes live, Tommy looks to his side of the field, sees the coverage, and throws it to either Spot A or Spot B in response. That's one read. Everything else is rolled into the playcall.

It sounds like it's keeping things pretty simple for the QB. And overall probably a lot less complicated than the kind of offense where the QB has multiple reads to think about on each play, goes through a number of progressions, and has to rely on the timing of the entire operation.

Really I'm just challenging the idea that the offense is too complicated. In fact, it appears to be pretty simplified. But I do hope they figure out a way to stop spectacularly bad errors from happening when the QB & WR aren't on the same page. That seems to be the biggest drawback of this system, which does have its strengths.

 

[Mavric]

How do we know we run exclusively option routes? If that's true then I would definately be of the opinion the passing game is far too complex for its own good.

I've not seen anything that we run exclusively option routes. There are some but definitely not all. If I had to guess, I'd say with two receivers on one side, one route is basically always called with the other being a compliment or an option.

 

[Mavric]

Pelini said he doesn't worry about whatever criticisms there may be over personnel decisions or second-guessing of certain plays.


"There's a lot to it. I've been doing it for a long, long time. As coaches, you see it during the week ... so you understand what's happening as opposed to someone who just sees something and says, 'OK, it's this. You just got to fix this.' Well, maybe on that one particular play. ...

"But at the end of the day, people are critical because they care. And that's a good thing. People care around here. I see that as a positive rather than a negative. Believe me, we coach for perfection. That's what our standard is. That's what we try to achieve."

Link

 

[zoogs]

It's amazing what a change in tone that is, and it's beautiful.

 

[Hayseed]

Maybe I'm completely wrong but I think some of these pass plays are just practice to see if we can do it because the coaches know we WILL have to do it against better teams. We could just run on every down against the weak teams, but we'd get killed by the good ones.

 

[Danny Bateman]

A lot of what Bo said in that article made sense. Bo's idea that players earn playing time in practice during the week could lend itself to guys like Roach who are "gamers" that might not practice as well riding the pine, and that's a shame, but the logic is solid. I'd say that's likely why we see the same 5 starting on the OL week after week.

I hope he the bit about totally trusting Beck and Ganz as QB coaches is coachspeak. It's pretty obvious that TA need further instruction to refine his QB skills at this point.

Zoogs, I'd hope that our offense doesn't feature option routes TOO heavily. I see their value in exploiting the defense, but last week, you saw what happens when it blows up in your face-- multiple picks. There's no doubt that trusting a QB and WR to see the same thing on a play is riskier than running a predetermined route.

Jarvis, that's a great point. Tommy rarely will scan all the way from one side of the field to the other. If TA really does pick one side or the other, this makes sense.

Dude, I just don't think being creative in the run game is something we'll see out of Beck CONSISTENTLY. We'll see flashes of it. I harken back to the triple option at the Big House in 2011. That was a DAMN creative play. But we're just going to have to accept that the guy's forte is the passing game and we're probably not going to see a whole lot of innovation from him in the run game at this point. Hopefully, he gets that sweep working next weekend. That's about the best I'll hope for, and anything else is gravy.