Receiver Depth

[True2tRA]

What kind of numbers do you guys expect well-utilized tight ends to put up?

You've got this infatuation with numbers. Every argument, you go to the stats. Could I ever convince you that some of the most effective things in this game are the things you probably don't see or pay no mind to. That little dump pass on an out route to the TE just reminded the MLB or OLB that he can't just crash in on the running game all day long. That one TE seam route that only netted 1 reception for 18 yards for the TE stat sheet just reminded that LB'er and that safety that he is responsible for the middle of the field and can't just double up on the WR, or crash that run game. That next time that TE runs that seam route, he's running the safety and LB'er right out of the box while you're hitting Abdullah up the gut or Newby on a shovel pass. Or that lovely little dump pass you scream for Tommy to throw, well if the defense is covering the TE on a shorte our route, their not crashing into the backfield on Ameer, and if they do, you burn their a$$.
So to answer your question, it could be 2 receptions for 10 yards or it could be 8 for 38....whatever. But it could be the difference in the game for your running back/WR/ or QB. Two completions to the TE and we don't hear you crying about Tommy's completion percentage as much.

 

[ColoradoHusk]

What kind of numbers do you guys expect well-utilized tight ends to put up?

I think somewhere around 30-35 catches and a handful of TDs would be good production for a TE. I am not as much concerned about the numbers but how they are utilized. If they are targeted for key first downs or in the end zone, that's where a TE's are most effective.

Guys like Sheldon Jackson, Tracey Wistrom, and old Osborne TE's were key targets in the passing game. Yes this had a lot to do with a lack of prolific WR's back then, but I think there is room for targets to the TE in this offense.

 

[ColoradoHusk]

Agree with what True said. It's less about numbers with the TE. It's more about effectiveness of touches, being a safe option for the QB, and keeping the defenses honest.

Beck is so infatuated with the WR's getting vertical that it can bog down an offense when the QB is passing poorly and the WR's are running poor routes. See the 2nd half of last weeks game.

 

[Landlord]

What kind of numbers do you guys expect well-utilized tight ends to put up?

You've got this infatuation with numbers. Every argument, you go to the stats. Could I ever convince you that some of the most effective things in this game are the things you probably don't see or pay no mind to. That little dump pass on an out route to the TE just reminded the MLB or OLB that he can't just crash in on the running game all day long. That one TE seam route that only netted 1 reception for 18 yards for the TE stat sheet just reminded that LB'er and that safety that he is responsible for the middle of the field and can't just double up on the WR, or crash that run game. That next time that TE runs that seam route, he's running the safety and LB'er right out of the box while you're hitting Abdullah up the gut or Newby on a shovel pass. Or that lovely little dump pass you scream for Tommy to throw, well if the defense is covering the TE on a shorte our route, their not crashing into the backfield on Ameer, and if they do, you burn their a$$.

It's not an infatuation; it's the most effective way of talking about productivity with other people. I'm not a football coach or an X's and O's savant, and undoubtedly miss a lot, so without intimate and highly educated knowledge of the game or statistics, the only thing we're really left with is the famed 'eyeball test', which can be helpful but if the discussion is one like this where people claim we don't use our tight ends effectively, what's the basis for thinking so?

What kind of numbers do you guys expect well-utilized tight ends to put up?

I think somewhere around 30-35 catches and a handful of TDs would be good production for a TE. I am not as much concerned about the numbers but how they are utilized. If they are targeted for key first downs or in the end zone, that's where a TE's are most effective.

Guys like Sheldon Jackson, Tracey Wistrom, and old Osborne TE's were key targets in the passing game. Yes this had a lot to do with a lack of prolific WR's back then, but I think there is room for targets to the TE in this offense.

Kyler Reed was pretty close to that in 2010 and 2012, but Mike McNeill set a school record with 32 receptions in 2008 - the most ever in a season by a tight end and also in the most productive (passing-wise) offense in school history. Are you sure that isn't a bit unrealistic?

I'm not sure what a good or bad stat line should or would be for tight ends in our offense, but I don't really see the same lack of production from the position that others do. Last year was ugly, but it wasn't for lack of trying. I can remember plenty of, at the very least, attempts to use our tight ends in the ways people are describing. Kyler's touchdown against Iowa in 2011 was a perfect example, as were some huge catches he had in 2012, including the 4th down against Michigan State. I can think of at least 6 specific instances of trying to hit Cethan Carter down the seams last year that weren't executed properly with our ragtag mash unit of an offense as well.

I played tight end in high school and from day 1 was taught not to get frustrated about not getting a ton of looks, because the whole point of my position is to catch the opponent by surprise. If I got thrown to 5-7 times per game, there's no surprise.

tl;dr i don't know anything.

 

[ColoradoHusk]

Landlord, I may be unrealistic about TE production, especially when NU appeared to have a lot of depth at WR. But, when the TE's have a total of 2 targets thru 2 games this year, that is concerning.

I think Beck and Armstrong make things difficult for themselves with all of these vertical routes to the WRs. NU has a matchup problem for defenses with Carter, and they aren't utilizing him.

 

[Count 'Bility]

True put it pretty well landlord. Its just the threat. The mindset. If wed a shown just a glipse of an intermediate passing game saturda onstead of tryin to go deep every play it may have made all the difference. But like i said in another thread, all they did was press the line with their backers and key ameer and play 3and 4 deep. And per usual we were too stubborn or too incompetent to exploit the open windows.

Like the oregon/mich st game. Why you think oregon got so many guys runnin free on go's? Its because oregon jet sweeps the piss oit of people. And that was obviously on the minds of msu dbacks. Its just something extra to think about. I mean, we see how much trouble our own defense has with the whole thinking thing.

 

[sd'sker]

What kind of numbers do you guys expect well-utilized tight ends to put up?

You've got this infatuation with numbers. Every argument, you go to the stats. Could I ever convince you that some of the most effective things in this game are the things you probably don't see or pay no mind to. That little dump pass on an out route to the TE just reminded the MLB or OLB that he can't just crash in on the running game all day long. That one TE seam route that only netted 1 reception for 18 yards for the TE stat sheet just reminded that LB'er and that safety that he is responsible for the middle of the field and can't just double up on the WR, or crash that run game. That next time that TE runs that seam route, he's running the safety and LB'er right out of the box while you're hitting Abdullah up the gut or Newby on a shovel pass. Or that lovely little dump pass you scream for Tommy to throw, well if the defense is covering the TE on a shorte our route, their not crashing into the backfield on Ameer, and if they do, you burn their a$$.
So to answer your question, it could be 2 receptions for 10 yards or it could be 8 for 38....whatever. But it could be the difference in the game for your running back/WR/ or QB. Two completions to the TE and we don't hear you crying about Tommy's completion percentage as much.

very well said true.

it is like discounting a fb because they do not get many touches. that is not the point. it is just a versatile position that can catch a team off guard or keep them honest. it does not make any sense at all to just reduce it to how many yards they might produce. the produce plenty, for other players.

 

[Landlord]

Landlord, I may be unrealistic about TE production, especially when NU appeared to have a lot of depth at WR. But, when the TE's have a total of 2 targets thru 2 games this year, that is concerning.

I think Beck and Armstrong make things difficult for themselves with all of these vertical routes to the WRs. NU has a matchup problem for defenses with Carter, and they aren't utilizing him.

That's fair, but (kind of agreeing with true's point) I think there's only a certain amount of stock to put into numbers, and even less so with only two games worth of data. For example, we're still averaging like 350 rushing yards per game through two games, not because we're a juggernaut running team but because of a statistical outlier and not enough numbers to make an accurate average.

I'd be interested to know how Beck and Tommy both fit into this equation. It's no secret Tommy loves the deep ball - tv broadcasts aren't conducive for seeing the entire field but I wonder if we've got Cotton and Carter running free more often than we see and Tommy isn't seeing them.

 

[True2tRA]

Landlord, I may be unrealistic about TE production, especially when NU appeared to have a lot of depth at WR. But, when the TE's have a total of 2 targets thru 2 games this year, that is concerning.

I think Beck and Armstrong make things difficult for themselves with all of these vertical routes to the WRs. NU has a matchup problem for defenses with Carter, and they aren't utilizing him.

That's fair, but (kind of agreeing with true's point) I think there's only a certain amount of stock to put into numbers, and even less so with only two games worth of data. For example, we're still averaging like 350 rushing yards per game through two games, not because we're a juggernaut running team but because of a statistical outlier and not enough numbers to make an accurate average.

I'd be interested to know how Beck and Tommy both fit into this equation. It's no secret Tommy loves the deep ball - tv broadcasts aren't conducive for seeing the entire field but I wonder if we've got Cotton and Carter running free more often than we see and Tommy isn't seeing them.

Not to give you too much credit LOMS, but good point. That is an aspect of it, Tommy not seeing it. We may be doing a lot more things than Average Joe fan (myself included) is just not seeing. Not just limited to the TE either. I was literally thinking this exact thing about the television view, today while driving. As a fan we do speculate with very little knowledge of what the actual intentions are. Even recently I've struggled with this because I hate to blame players for ugly games like this last weekend, although they are obviously part of the problem. It's just hard to tell how big of a part. What is it we are missing. What are we trying to do that we are not getting done?

One thing is for sure. I'd much rather be the guy that asks questions or tries to figure it out, rather than simply blame and point fingers. Although I do a bit of both.

 

[Landlord]

Not to give you too much credit LOMS, but good point. That is an aspect of it, Tommy not seeing it. We may be doing a lot more things than Average Joe fan (myself included) is just not seeing. Not just limited to the TE either. I was literally thinking this exact thing about the television view, today while driving. As a fan we do speculate with very little knowledge of what the actual intentions are. Even recently I've struggled with this because I hate to blame players for ugly games like this last weekend, although they are obviously part of the problem. It's just hard to tell how big of a part. What is it we are missing. What are we trying to do that we are not getting done?
One thing is for sure. I'd much rather be the guy that asks questions or tries to figure it out, rather than simply blame and point fingers. Although I do a bit of both.

The more I learn the more I learn that I don't know anything.

Football is so incredibly complicated and there's such a tremendous amount of thought and work that goes into it by everyone involved that at the end of the day I just have to sit down and admit that I am an outsider with no more than a layman's uneducated opinion about what's going on, and usually along the way I'll form an opinion about something, only to figure out new details at some point that make me realize I was dead wrong.

That fumbled pitch by Newby against Michigan State last year is a perfect example. On the surface it looks like he just failed to make a routine play, completely inexcusable. But then a week ago Hail Varsity writes out an article that goes into how the angle and position of the sun in relation to the stadium is a very real obstacle and how Terrell had the sun right in his eyes, and also went from shade to daylight at the very instant of trying to catch the football, which can't be easy for the best of them.

 

[admo]

What kind of numbers do you guys expect well-utilized tight ends to put up in a run-first zone read offense?

Land, I'm not sure about numbers. However, the offense is Multiple with a 50/50 pass/run ratio game plan. Around midfield the TE causes mismatch on skinny post routes, and corner routes in the redzone. Those are really good plays to utilize a few times a game.

 

[admo]

This is becoming a concern of mine.

We started off with these players having major game experience:

Bell

Turner

Westerkamp

Reilly

Burch

Moore ( to a lesser extent)

Of those, now we have had Bell, Turner, Reilly and Burch miss time with injuries. Turner is out for the year and we haven't heard yet if Bell will miss any more time.

We REALLY need Reilly and Burch to get back up to playing speed. I think they are available for this game but I don't remember seeing them on the field.

As of now, only Westerkamp and Moore are the healthy ones in this bunch.

no taariq allen?

Forgot him. Sorry.

My concern about depth still remains. I like him and believe he has talent. However, so far, he hasn't shown big play ability. Hopefully as the season goes, he will work into that roll.

I think Bo said Westerkamp and Bell should be ready for next game. And that he expects more from Moore because he is talented.

 

[chamrocck]

Westerkamp has looked great. We really need Bell's big play ability so hopefully he is ready to go. I have been waiting for Moore to break-out. Also like Pierson-El. Still assessing Allen...not sure if he has big play ability but if he can possess the ball and get first downs then that is what we need him for. Keep the chains moving.

 

[desertshox]

Landlord, I may be unrealistic about TE production, especially when NU appeared to have a lot of depth at WR. But, when the TE's have a total of 2 targets thru 2 games this year, that is concerning.

I think Beck and Armstrong make things difficult for themselves with all of these vertical routes to the WRs. NU has a matchup problem for defenses with Carter, and they aren't utilizing him.

That's fair, but (kind of agreeing with true's point) I think there's only a certain amount of stock to put into numbers, and even less so with only two games worth of data. For example, we're still averaging like 350 rushing yards per game through two games, not because we're a juggernaut running team but because of a statistical outlier and not enough numbers to make an accurate average.

I'd be interested to know how Beck and Tommy both fit into this equation. It's no secret Tommy loves the deep ball - tv broadcasts aren't conducive for seeing the entire field but I wonder if we've got Cotton and Carter running free more often than we see and Tommy isn't seeing them.

Not to give you too much credit LOMS, but good point. That is an aspect of it, Tommy not seeing it. We may be doing a lot more things than Average Joe fan (myself included) is just not seeing. Not just limited to the TE either. I was literally thinking this exact thing about the television view, today while driving. As a fan we do speculate with very little knowledge of what the actual intentions are. Even recently I've struggled with this because I hate to blame players for ugly games like this last weekend, although they are obviously part of the problem. It's just hard to tell how big of a part. What is it we are missing. What are we trying to do that we are not getting done?

One thing is for sure. I'd much rather be the guy that asks questions or tries to figure it out, rather than simply blame and point fingers. Although I do a bit of both.

another question to ask is, how much did they have to keep the TE in on passing plays to help block because the offensive line never made it to the stadium.

 

[lo country]

What kind of numbers do you guys expect well-utilized tight ends to put up?

You've got this infatuation with numbers. Every argument, you go to the stats. Could I ever convince you that some of the most effective things in this game are the things you probably don't see or pay no mind to. That little dump pass on an out route to the TE just reminded the MLB or OLB that he can't just crash in on the running game all day long. That one TE seam route that only netted 1 reception for 18 yards for the TE stat sheet just reminded that LB'er and that safety that he is responsible for the middle of the field and can't just double up on the WR, or crash that run game. That next time that TE runs that seam route, he's running the safety and LB'er right out of the box while you're hitting Abdullah up the gut or Newby on a shovel pass. Or that lovely little dump pass you scream for Tommy to throw, well if the defense is covering the TE on a shorte our route, their not crashing into the backfield on Ameer, and if they do, you burn their a$$.
So to answer your question, it could be 2 receptions for 10 yards or it could be 8 for 38....whatever. But it could be the difference in the game for your running back/WR/ or QB. Two completions to the TE and we don't hear you crying about Tommy's completion percentage as much.

^+100 Just like our punt returns last season for a forgotten phase of the game, Beck and refusal to acknowledge the TE can actually a) go downfield without a penalty and b) catch and advance the ball boggles the mind.

As you mentioned above, if we even threw twice per game it would have to make the LB's respect the "possibility" that our TE will go into a route as opposed to continually crashing the box with 7-8 on 5.

NU gets killed by rolling RB's or TE's who slide into the flats or delay and drag across the middle. NU could eat teams alive with these plays........