TA Needs to Help OLine by Being In The Pocket

[Kernal]

Yeah those are excellent points. My feeling is that pocket presence is probably a tough thing to pick up on and will only come with time. I'm sure the coaches are pointing this out in film sessions and hopefully it can be corrected. The line played very well overall in those plays.

Here's an honest question. If arm chair coaches, myself included, can identify issues I am sure the coaches can as well. In regards to TA, is it possible that they don't care about these issues and that is why we have seen them for 2 years? Maybe they feel these "issues" aren't costing us games and "if it ain't broke don't try to fix it". They look at the good vs the bad and continue to bank on him "getting it". Much like Martinez continued to have issues until he sought out private help.

Maybe at this point in his career/season the staff is content to continue to allow him to play like this as we are winning. Rely on him to not make mistakes and let the running game and vertical passing game (screens/swing passes when completed) be the staple on O while the D continues to improve. Similar to 2009, but also having an O with a pulse.

I'm sure the coaches see what we see and probably 50x more. Do they care? I think they see the whole picture better than fans. I think it's a case of they only have so much time to rep the offense. If Beck is wanting to run 65% of the time, or whatever we're doing, and play-action pass 25% or whatever that figure is, then that doesn't leave much time for pocket-passing and everything that goes along with it. I'm sure they rep the stuff they are going to rely on most during games, and rep the other stuff as much as they can with whatever time is left over.

Armstrong is managing the run offense very well, including his part in running the ball, so that shows that he's excelling where he's getting the most practice. He's also hitting the deep balls very well, and he's hit and miss with some of the other passing, along with the receivers being hit and miss with catching and routes, and the O-line hit and miss with their blocking and protections. But we're seeing the limitations of running an offense like this with an young/underdeveloped passer. At times, we need to hit those short and medium passes when the defense is taking away the run game. It just takes more practice and experience. And it would help if the receivers could stay healthy.

I think too that every team has some variation of this same problem. Teams out there with passing offenses are trying to figure out how to get their QB, RBs and O-line more effective in the running game. It takes a freak athlete at QB and a host of exceptional teammates to make it all work. At least that's how I see it.

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

To the issue of pocket passers vs. dual threat QBs: just heard a guy on ESPN talking about whether Robert Griffin III will ever reemerge as a viable NFL QB. He said RGIII still had the mentality of a college football playmaker as opposed to an NFL pocket passer, presumably the latter being preferable.

Is it? I guess so. But the playmaker mentality still has to count for something. I think this goes along with the criticism that Tommy doesn't look down his progressions when he drops back to pass. It occurs to me that dual threat playmakers will never look down progressions the same way pocket passers do, because their #2 option isn't another receiver, it's making the decision: can I just take off running and get the same yards without putting the ball in the air? A thought that rarely occurs to Peyton Manning.

Maybe it's one too many things for a QB to think about, but it's also a pretty terrifying thing for defensive coordinators to think about.

Makes sense. Carolina Panthers fan. I have watched Cam go from a dual threat QB to one that Rivera is trying to make into more of a "typical" NFL QB. IMO they have taken away or limited what made him so good his first few seasons. His ability to make a read and then take off and use his legs. Dude is big, won't get laid out by DB's or LB's as he is as big if not bigger than most. But, Carolina is dialing it back to throw for a completion or go out of bounds with the ball.
My point being, NU like Carolina and Cam need to let TA be TA. If they can't teach or he won't learn the "proper" QB mold let him run. Design the passing game around the PA, vertical passing and his running. Instead of trying to have him be a pocket passer, roll the pocket and let him get a head of steam and either hit the primary, the outlet or simply follow the OL upfield. Let him run. Much like DPE in the return game. He makes one move (one read) and goes.

My team is the SF 49ers, and a lot of the Tommy Armstrong critiques would sound familiar to Colin Kaepernick.

 

[Mavric]

Yeah those are excellent points. My feeling is that pocket presence is probably a tough thing to pick up on and will only come with time. I'm sure the coaches are pointing this out in film sessions and hopefully it can be corrected. The line played very well overall in those plays.

Here's an honest question. If arm chair coaches, myself included, can identify issues I am sure the coaches can as well. In regards to TA, is it possible that they don't care about these issues and that is why we have seen them for 2 years? Maybe they feel these "issues" aren't costing us games and "if it ain't broke don't try to fix it". They look at the good vs the bad and continue to bank on him "getting it". Much like Martinez continued to have issues until he sought out private help.

Maybe at this point in his career/season the staff is content to continue to allow him to play like this as we are winning. Rely on him to not make mistakes and let the running game and vertical passing game (screens/swing passes when completed) be the staple on O while the D continues to improve. Similar to 2009, but also having an O with a pulse.

If we simply use the ultra-generic "issues" label and say "our quarterbacks have issues" I'm guessing that will never get fixed. Even Peyton Manning has "issues."

If we're a little more specific, there may be progress to be seen.

 

[lo country]

Yeah those are excellent points. My feeling is that pocket presence is probably a tough thing to pick up on and will only come with time. I'm sure the coaches are pointing this out in film sessions and hopefully it can be corrected. The line played very well overall in those plays.

Here's an honest question. If arm chair coaches, myself included, can identify issues I am sure the coaches can as well. In regards to TA, is it possible that they don't care about these issues and that is why we have seen them for 2 years? Maybe they feel these "issues" aren't costing us games and "if it ain't broke don't try to fix it". They look at the good vs the bad and continue to bank on him "getting it". Much like Martinez continued to have issues until he sought out private help.

Maybe at this point in his career/season the staff is content to continue to allow him to play like this as we are winning. Rely on him to not make mistakes and let the running game and vertical passing game (screens/swing passes when completed) be the staple on O while the D continues to improve. Similar to 2009, but also having an O with a pulse.

If we simply use the ultra-generic "issues" label and say "our quarterbacks have issues" I'm guessing that will never get fixed. Even Peyton Manning has "issues."

If we're a little more specific, there may be progress to be seen.

Issues being specifically locking in on receivers, not progressing through reads, having a hard time hitting routes to the flats or screens and the pocket presence mentioned above.

 

[I AM FOOT FOOT]

Yall just over analyze dis shiggidy. Here lets make it simple,

Line can't block cuz sterup look high on colorado state flower, Pelini at center, yeah, thanks uncle bo, Armstrong coach by Joe Ganz, ain't teach him shiggidy bout pass mechanic, and he panic to fast.

He da fastest qb who get sacked mo den anybody I see.

There u go analyzation thanks to me, out

So hey Vince when you bull rush the center in practice and roll him does he say"hey uncle Bo this guy is doing mean stuff to me"??

 

[Count 'Bility]

"HE BROKETED MY NOSE"

 

[blackshirt98]

Yall just over analyze dis shiggidy. Here lets make it simple,

Line can't block cuz sterup look high on colorado state flower, Pelini at center, yeah, thanks uncle bo, Armstrong coach by Joe Ganz, ain't teach him shiggidy bout pass mechanic, and he panic to fast.

He da fastest qb who get sacked mo den anybody I see.

There u go analyzation thanks to me, out

So hey Vince when you bull rush the center in practice and roll him does he say"hey uncle Bo this guy is doing mean stuff to me"??

Aw hell sterup got bong resin in his eye, knock him flat , he be contemplatin aliens or some sh#t stare at da clouds then get hungry fo marshmallow n sh#t!

Ain't takin no jeperdy mind figgerin dat out, fug!

 

[ShawnWatson]

Yall just over analyze dis shiggidy. Here lets make it simple,

Line can't block cuz sterup look high on colorado state flower, Pelini at center, yeah, thanks uncle bo, Armstrong coach by Joe Ganz, ain't teach him shiggidy bout pass mechanic, and he panic to fast.

He da fastest qb who get sacked mo den anybody I see.

There u go analyzation thanks to me, out

So hey Vince when you bull rush the center in practice and roll him does he say"hey uncle Bo this guy is doing mean stuff to me"??

Aw hell sterup got bong resin in his eye, knock him flat , he be contemplatin aliens or some sh#t stare at da clouds then get hungry fo marshmallow n sh#t!

Ain't takin no jeperdy mind figgerin dat out, fug!

Bong resin in his eye, I like that.

 

[yort2000]

Excellent post. Some of these bozos don't get that if the DE can run as fast as possible for 5 yards straight ahead and then cut to the qb that there isn't an OT in the world that can shuffle backwards fast enough to stop him.

It brings up a lot of questions for me. Do shotgun qb's take different steps than under center qb's? IE, it appears that Tommy's first step is with his left foot and that he takes even number of steps to get his right foot planted. Do under center qb's have their right foot back at snap and thus that counts as the fiirst step to get the odd number of steps in their step count to get to their plant foot? If 7 steps is a deep drop for an under the center qb than wouldn't a 6 step drop (something that appears normal for Nebraska) for a shotgun qb 5 yards behind the LOS be quite excessive?

From what I've seen TA lines up 5 yards from the LOS. A two/three step drop puts him at 6/7 yards, which is as deep as he should be getting normally. A pro-style 7 step drop is usually about 9 yards deep. If he goes deeper than 6/7 yards and his first option isn't open by the time he sets his plant foot, he should be moving forward looking at his other options. I have seen him get to 12 yards deep on a play action pass.

I only have the Northwestern game on DVR but it looks to me on "drop back" passes he does his 6 step deal and ends up at 9 yards. Also, in obvious passing situations, one or both of the opponents DEs just goes as fast as he can to the 9 yard behind center spot.

 

[Danny Bateman]

You wanna see how to operate like a surgeon in a predominately spread attack?

Watch Peyton Manning. Dude hardly takes a step drop on most snaps and steps up like... Peyton Manning.

 

[yort2000]

You wanna see how to operate like a surgeon in a predominately spread attack?

Watch Peyton Manning. Dude hardly takes a step drop on most snaps and steps up like... Peyton Manning.

Yeah, watching Oregon here. Mariotta lines up about 5 yards from LOS doesn't get more the 1 1/2 yards back from there, even on 54 yard downfield play action pass.

 

[Mierin]

So all we need to do is tell Armstrong to be more like Peyton Manning. Why didn't anyone think of this before?

 

[EmeraldIngot]

From shotgun, the QB lines up 4 to 5 yards behind the center. That's approximately the equivalent to a 3 step drop from oder center. I read an article somewhere that an NFL team in the late 80s or early 90's had a QB with a bad ankle sprain, and wasn't able to take those drop steps from under center. Because of his limited mobility, they put him in shotgun and basically told him that the only steps he would have to make was to plant his foot and throw. I'd link it but I can't seem to find it...

Anyway, what that means is that, from a shotgun formation, you're already in a 3 step drop position. The QB catches the snap, plants his foot, and makes a very quick throw.

For the equivalent of a 5 step drop from shotgun, the QB catches the snap, steps back with his right foot (if right handed, left foot if left handed), does a crossover step, plants, and MAY do a shuffle or short hop forward to buy some time in the pocket to go through progressions, and make a throw.

7 step drops are almost exclusively reserved for play action passes, with only the deepest of pass routes. Or some variations of the 4 verticals from under center. Since play action footwork from shotgun is completely different due to th placement of the RB, 7 step equivalent are very rare. In the few cases they are used, it's the same as the 5 step equivalent from shotgun, but with one extra crossover step and sometimes two shuffle or hops up into the pocket. The overall effect would look like TAs 99 yard pass to Enunwa, which was a perfect example of a 7 step drop. Only from shotgun, rather than from under center like that example.

Hope this helps!

 

[The Dude]

Kept an eye out for this in real time today, not sure it's really a significant issue. :shrug:

 

[QMany]

Issues being specifically locking in on receivers, not progressing through reads, having a hard time hitting routes to the flats or screens and the pocket presence mentioned above.

I have gone back and watched parts of the game a few times since it ended. Tommy did some really good things today in regards to your prior complaints. He did lock on to Kenny on the INT, but made some noticeable improvements. Tommy made it through is progression a few times and checked down to Ameer in the middle of the field once for a great gain. He also made a decent throw to Kenny in the flat for 10-12 yards. I think his pocket presence is improving, too.