Bo's Complicated Defense

J

jmfb

Banned
Not a fan of the "if we only did this" or straight bashing. Prefer facts from people that know what they are talking about, subject matter experts

So this one is a little off tangent

Is Bos defense too complicated because Bo is some type of defensive savant genious and he thinks this stuff should come as easy to everyone else as it does him?

Have you ever met someone that was insanely good at what they do almost naturally?

The person who learns how to play an instrument really well just by listening to the music and figuring out on their own how to play? They then end up playing 6 instruments prety well in the next 2 years

How about the mechanical genious with no formal training that can fix anything or build elaborate things in no time at all?

For whatever reason these things come very easy and naturally to them, it takes very liitle for it to all make sense to them, it's like they are operating in another dimension

Have you ever had one of those guys try and teach you what they know? A lot of times it doesnt work out very well. They have a hard time explaining it to someone who isnt on the same level. They get frustrated when you dont get it as easily as they do, they just dont get why this doesnt come to you so quickly.

Remember Bo was an all-star DB at OSU. He was coaching HS football when he got his shot in the NFL. He had some obscure job, but showed his genious on Defense enough to vault himself to a coaching staff position and then to great college jobs at NU, LSU, OU etc He Obviously knows his stuff

But its possible even his own DC may not have as good a grasp on the D as one would expect- possible, Im not saying it is true

Many very athletic players havent been able to see the field as one would expect, lots of times the reason being they dont get the system

Im not suggesting the scheme should change- no doubt it works when executed properly

BUT would it make sense to consider going to a less perfect system, if it allowed you to get your better players on the field sooner? I dont know

Ive had coaches who are incredible football minds or even great players- but they were really poor coaches

OTOH Ive had coaches who were very average players. pretty average football minds, but were really good at figuring things out and teaching. They could relate to the average player with the average football IQ and info proccessing ability. In fact, Im not going to point fingers at anyone or name names, but there are several incredible football minds, well known and respected- savants really who know this game about as well as anyone- elite of the elite who have failed miserably as coaches

 
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We may not agree on alot of stuff but you are spot on here. I worked with a guy who does rennovation for homes now. Charges an arm and a leg, and people pay him gladly. He jacks the price, they still pay. Because he does beautiful work. Work not even the most experienced person in his field can do. But he doesnt understand why people pay him to do it when they could do it themselves. It just comes second nature to him. It would be like trying to learn basic math from Stephen Hawking.

Simplifying the schemes Bo has built may work but it has to hurt him to do it when you know they work so well with the right personnel. I guess there has to be a happy medium the whole staff/players can agree on. No doubt in my mind Bo still has a great mind for Defense, pehaps too great.

 
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From my perspective, you alter the scheme to fit the players you have, not the players you have to fit your scheme. The latter spells disaster because you may be asking guys to do things they just can't do. I feel confident Pelini does this, and personally, I think our biggest shortcoming right now is in the interior defensive line. Other defensive guys, including Charlie McBride IIRC (don't quote me on that), have said this scheme needs a dominant DT to be really effective, and we definitely haven't had that since 2009 and to a lesser degree in 2010.

Is it possible Pelini goes over their heads? I guess, but that comes entirely from a place of speculation. I feel like we don't have enough evidence to go one way more so than the other. We've seen the scheme work in the past, but that was with a freakish DT and then a good but not-as-good defensive line in 2010.

From my perspective, our biggest shortcomings have been we lacked the talent to fit the scheme and no matter the adjustments we made we couldn't get our guys to execute well. And I don't think it's because the defense is too hard, I just think it's because we didn't have the players who could do it.

 
I totally agree with your assessment of what makes a good coach.

I have always said that Larry Bird would make a better coach (and did) than Michael Jordan ever could dream of. Why? because it came so natural to MJ that he would have a very hard time teaching it to other, less talented, players. Counter that with Bird and all the stories I have read about what made him so good was all his tireless work in the gym because it wasn't as easy for him.

I think the same thing can be said about how Ganz relates to QBs. He was good. But, he wasn't this 5 star player who came out of HS and rolled right in and succeeded at the next level. He worked his azz off and right up until the first game he started, most Husker fans thought he would never amount to anything. He can now take that experience and relate to every QB in the system.

Now...as far as Bo's system. I have no idea. The big question to me is.....how much more difficult is his system than what is being ran at other top programs. If the answer is "not much" then it isn't the difficulty of the system that is the problem. Now, if other very successful programs (on defense) have a much more simple scheme and let's the athlete play, then it's something that needs to be considered.

 
Enhance89 said:
From my perspective, you alter the scheme to fit the players you have, not the players you have to fit your scheme. The latter spells disaster because you may be asking guys to do things they just can't do. I feel confident Pelini does this, and personally, I think our biggest shortcoming right now is in the interior defensive line. Other defensive guys, including Charlie McBride IIRC (don't quote me on that), have said this scheme needs a dominant DT to be really effective, and we definitely haven't had that since 2009 and to a lesser degree in 2010.

Is it possible Pelini goes over their heads? I guess, but that comes entirely from a place of speculation. I feel like we don't have enough evidence to go one way more so than the other. We've seen the scheme work in the past, but that was with a freakish DT and then a good but not-as-good defensive line in 2010.

From my perspective, our biggest shortcomings have been we lacked the talent to fit the scheme and no matter the adjustments we made we couldn't get our guys to execute well. And I don't think it's because the defense is too hard, I just think it's because we didn't have the players who could do it.
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I agree with this. Unfortunately in Nebraska or for sure until we can right this ship from the disaster that the previous regime left, this is the way we have to recruit and plan our schemes IMO also. After or if we get back to the dominating ways of the past then things may turn to where you can get the players for a certain scheme.

 
Enhanced- good take

I know HS coaches who make major changes in scheme some years and little in others depending on the kids they get- not into forcing large square pegs through small round holes

In HS- especially smaller schools- HUGE swings in talent

Obviously the College teams get to go out and recruit who they want, but you never always get what you want

It's all relative, talent that is

 
Enhance89 said:
From my perspective, you alter the scheme to fit the players you have, not the players you have to fit your scheme. The latter spells disaster because you may be asking guys to do things they just can't do. I feel confident Pelini does this, and personally, I think our biggest shortcoming right now is in the interior defensive line. Other defensive guys, including Charlie McBride IIRC (don't quote me on that), have said this scheme needs a dominant DT to be really effective, and we definitely haven't had that since 2009 and to a lesser degree in 2010.

Is it possible Pelini goes over their heads? I guess, but that comes entirely from a place of speculation. I feel like we don't have enough evidence to go one way more so than the other. We've seen the scheme work in the past, but that was with a freakish DT and then a good but not-as-good defensive line in 2010.

From my perspective, our biggest shortcomings have been we lacked the talent to fit the scheme and no matter the adjustments we made we couldn't get our guys to execute well. And I don't think it's because the defense is too hard, I just think it's because we didn't have the players who could do it.
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so as long as Bo plays his scheme and we recruit half a$$ talent, we continue to get half assed results...is that about it?

 
One thing I always remember and keep in mind. It was documented that the ONLY time Dr. Tom used his entire play book was when Frazier was a senior. I even think TO discussed that in a few interviews at the time.

From that, I have always felt that a good scheme is one that can be effective for the first year player but then as the team matures, more can be added to it. If you have to know the entire play book day one to step on the field, something is wrong.

 
To me this is a simple problem of Bo not being aware of every component that makes up his defense.

There's a classic experiment (http://stalecheerios.com/blog/training-videos/columban-simulations-smart-pigeons/) where B.F. Skinner taught a very complex behavior (training a pidgin to move a box under a banana, stand on it, and peck the banana). In order to do this, he had to train each individual behavior up, then the pidgin was able to combine those behaviors into the desired outcome. This is how we learn in our day to day life. We come in contact with simple things, and then combine them to make complex things.

I think that Bo has not figured out every component to put this together in a systematic way. Guys that come into the system with the needed background seem to do great (David is a great example), but there are guys that clearly don't have all the pieces (like Paps). In my opinion, Bo should be taking some time to figure out what simple pieces combine to make the complex system. He hasn't figured it out yet and until he does, things are going to be hit or miss in my opinion.

 
Even if a couple pieces are missing I feel like we are right on the cusp of getting back to '09 form. It took some time and patience but next year could be the year we see a dramtic improvement. Look at the tale of the tape thread and look at that youth. By the time these guys are Seniors they will be fierce. Not only that but they wl be able to help the incoming guys learn so we dont leave such a talent void like we had to upon switching leagues.

 
Hunter94 said:
so as long as Bo plays his scheme and we recruit half a$$ talent, we continue to get half assed results...is that about it?
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In a word, yes. Obviously we can all see the results on the field, and they're not good. We've seen the defense do some truly amazing things under Pelini, but the biggest difference between then and now is talent imho. Pelini created a monstrous defense in two seasons, which is why I believe the scheme itself isn't overly challenging. If they could pick it up then, but the guys from 2011 into 2012 couldn't pick it up (despite being under Pelini's tutelage that entire time), what's the changing factor? Again, I would argue skill level.

Obviously, defense is inherently more difficult than offense because a lot of it is based on reaction - which way is the ball carrier going, how do I adjust my body to make the tackle, who do I need to shed a block on to make that tackle, etc. That's why recruiting plays such a big role.

 
Have you ever met a college professor? lol I'm taking statics right now and my professor knows what he's doing, but he cannot teach it to students. That being said I don't think that's the case with Bo's defense. I don't think that the defense is as complicated as we make it out to be. It comes down to being able to trust the player next to you and gelling as a unit.

 
Enhance89 said:
From my perspective, you alter the scheme to fit the players you have, not the players you have to fit your scheme. The latter spells disaster because you may be asking guys to do things they just can't do. I feel confident Pelini does this, and personally, I think our biggest shortcoming right now is in the interior defensive line. Other defensive guys, including Charlie McBride IIRC (don't quote me on that), have said this scheme needs a dominant DT to be really effective, and we definitely haven't had that since 2009 and to a lesser degree in 2010.
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I think that guy is on the roster and his name is Vincent Valentine to be honest with you. Have been very impressed with his play a lot of the time. Hes just a young pup as well. Avery Moss is another kid that I think is going to be a monster. Hes created a lot of issues even for UCLA's OTs.

It really sucks being young on defense. But we have shown a lot of promise at times.

 
Valentine looks to be that guy weve lacked. I presume next year he comes in looking jacked with a whole offseason of conditioning. Add a touch of speed to that monster and we could be looking at an anchor.

 
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