Do you want Achilles or Hector?

[Scratchtown]

LOMS, these characters played in the Rose Bowl this year.

Mariota vs Winston.

Mariota (Hector) won. 59-20

 

[JJ Husker]

Was Osborne Hector?

I think the argument can be made that he didn't win it all until he abandoned the Hector identity. Not entirely, but just enough.

That's bullsh#t. I'm getting real tired of this revisionist history that wants to claim that Osborne went a little dirty to make it over the hump. And primarily because of the Lawrence Phillips thing. Read some of Tom's book on the subject and find out why he really gave LP too many chances. Spoiler alert- it wasn't to win a natty, it was to do all he could (yes, probably too much in hindsight) to help a young man who just couldn't be helped.

I entirely support and defend Osborne as a great man, but the withholding evidence and interviewing witnesses to sexual assault are way more damning ammunition than Lawrence Phillips is.

I won't claim TO didn't make some curious choices along those lines but I am 100% convinced he did not do those things to help win games or to help himself. Too many people want to portray his actions as being done to help win games and that just isn't supported if you understand the motivation for his actions. I don't need TO to be a saint but he sure didn't sellout to win games or nattys. Hindsight just happens to make his actions look suspect.

 

[zeWilbur]

Was Osborne Hector?

I think the argument can be made that he didn't win it all until he abandoned the Hector identity. Not entirely, but just enough.

That's bullsh#t. I'm getting real tired of this revisionist history that wants to claim that Osborne went a little dirty to make it over the hump. And primarily because of the Lawrence Phillips thing. Read some of Tom's book on the subject and find out why he really gave LP too many chances. Spoiler alert- it wasn't to win a natty, it was to do all he could (yes, probably too much in hindsight) to help a young man who just couldn't be helped.

If you guys want to confuse the issue... Osborne would be more like King Priam than Hector/Achilles. Agamemnon would be the Switzer type. A coach can knowingly skirt the rules or live comfortably within them. Neither has any bearing on the roster makeup.

Osborne did not have LP on the roster because he was a charity case. He was there because he was a damn good football player who could help the team win. LP just happened to be an Achilles.

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

Was Osborne Hector?

I think the argument can be made that he didn't win it all until he abandoned the Hector identity. Not entirely, but just enough.

That's bullsh#t. I'm getting real tired of this revisionist history that wants to claim that Osborne went a little dirty to make it over the hump. And primarily because of the Lawrence Phillips thing. Read some of Tom's book on the subject and find out why he really gave LP too many chances. Spoiler alert- it wasn't to win a natty, it was to do all he could (yes, probably too much in hindsight) to help a young man who just couldn't be helped.

It was by no means Phillips alone. Terrell Farley was a serial drunk driver who couldn't stop f'ing up. Christian Peter was arrested 8 times at UNL, including 4 assaults on women. Jason Peter became addicted to crack, heroin and hookers. There were others. It was noted at the time that some of the faster, better players Osborne was recruiting, particularly on defense, were coming from rougher neighborhoods, and didn't even pretend to want an education from the University of Nebraska.

 

[JJ Husker]

Was Osborne Hector?

I think the argument can be made that he didn't win it all until he abandoned the Hector identity. Not entirely, but just enough.

That's bullsh#t. I'm getting real tired of this revisionist history that wants to claim that Osborne went a little dirty to make it over the hump. And primarily because of the Lawrence Phillips thing. Read some of Tom's book on the subject and find out why he really gave LP too many chances. Spoiler alert- it wasn't to win a natty, it was to do all he could (yes, probably too much in hindsight) to help a young man who just couldn't be helped.

It was by no means Phillips alone. Terrell Farley was a serial drunk driver who couldn't stop f'ing up. Christian Peter was arrested 8 times at UNL, including 4 assaults on women. Jason Peter became addicted to crack, heroin and hookers. There were others. It was noted at the time that some of the faster, better players Osborne was recruiting, particularly on defense, were coming from rougher neighborhoods, and didn't even pretend to want an education from the University of Nebraska.

So what's your point? I don't think anyone is claiming Tom didn't want good players or didn't want to win games. Yeah, some of the players from that time had some issues....the same issues found everywhere throughout college football at the time. I would say a lot of college football players are at schools such as Nebraska primarily to play football and not necessarily for an education. Tom played the game within the rules and he won, a lot. Does that make him a bad guy? Does that mean he did things for the wrong reasons? I sure don't think so.

 

[Landlord]

Was Osborne Hector?

I think the argument can be made that he didn't win it all until he abandoned the Hector identity. Not entirely, but just enough.

That's bullsh#t. I'm getting real tired of this revisionist history that wants to claim that Osborne went a little dirty to make it over the hump. And primarily because of the Lawrence Phillips thing. Read some of Tom's book on the subject and find out why he really gave LP too many chances. Spoiler alert- it wasn't to win a natty, it was to do all he could (yes, probably too much in hindsight) to help a young man who just couldn't be helped.

It was by no means Phillips alone. Terrell Farley was a serial drunk driver who couldn't stop f'ing up. Christian Peter was arrested 8 times at UNL, including 4 assaults on women. Jason Peter became addicted to crack, heroin and hookers. There were others. It was noted at the time that some of the faster, better players Osborne was recruiting, particularly on defense, were coming from rougher neighborhoods, and didn't even pretend to want an education from the University of Nebraska.

So what's your point? I don't think anyone is claiming Tom didn't want good players or didn't want to win games. Yeah, some of the players from that time had some issues....the same issues found everywhere throughout college football at the time. I would say a lot of college football players are at schools such as Nebraska primarily to play football and not necessarily for an education. Tom played the game within the rules and he won, a lot. Does that make him a bad guy? Does that mean he did things for the wrong reasons? I sure don't think so.

The point is that there is correlation between TO changing his approach towards the kinds of players he brings in, and his 22 year wait for national championships. There isn't necessarily causality, but it's understandable how people could arrive at the conclusion that he either knew he needed more morally ambiguous players to win big, or that he was the benefactor of an extremely convenient coincidence.

 

[huKSer]

Nebraska joins the B1G and the off-season discussion goes the Greek mythology analogy route..

Meanwhile, on Shaggy Bevo they are discussing penis sizes and shapes

 

[zoogs]

TO rarely finished outside the Top Ten in his entire career, so I don't think that "correlation" is especially noteworthy. Nebraska had some dominant teams in the 1980s, a (relative) lull, and then returned for the 90s. Everything is cyclical.

Although I'm interested in the argument that you can't get big time football without issues. Not necessarily from the coaches. Just the whole institution.

 

[Landlord]

Although I'm interested in the argument that you can't get big time football without issues. Not necessarily from the coaches. Just the whole institution.

It's a really compelling discussion. Modern age super duper nice guy Bill Snyder, as legendary as he is, has only managed one conference championship and one poor BCS showing since returning to KSU. Not definitive, but there aren't many Hectors in college football, unfortunately. At least not as coaches.

 

[Scratchtown]

Was Osborne Hector?

I think the argument can be made that he didn't win it all until he abandoned the Hector identity. Not entirely, but just enough.

That's bullsh#t. I'm getting real tired of this revisionist history that wants to claim that Osborne went a little dirty to make it over the hump. And primarily because of the Lawrence Phillips thing. Read some of Tom's book on the subject and find out why he really gave LP too many chances. Spoiler alert- it wasn't to win a natty, it was to do all he could (yes, probably too much in hindsight) to help a young man who just couldn't be helped.

It was by no means Phillips alone. Terrell Farley was a serial drunk driver who couldn't stop f'ing up. Christian Peter was arrested 8 times at UNL, including 4 assaults on women. Jason Peter became addicted to crack, heroin and hookers. There were others. It was noted at the time that some of the faster, better players Osborne was recruiting, particularly on defense, were coming from rougher neighborhoods, and didn't even pretend to want an education from the University of Nebraska.

I'm serious when I ask this question, because it's always been what I've been told since I was just turning 10 years old when TO retired.

When TO changed his focus on the "type" of player, it was geared much more on speed right? Recruiting track athletes and teaching/developing them how to play D1 football. Also, part of this was due to the change in scheme defensively correct? Changing from at 5-2 monster to a 4-3?

I don't know that TO necessarily decided to recruit rougher neighborhoods just to win, but out of necessity to find speed to run the 4-3 and match the programs that had the luxury of easy recruiting.

I could be way off, but thats what I was always told as a kid.

 

[The Dude]

Osborne was probably always more Achilles than most would want to admit. I doubt he was oblivious to all the steroids and things that went on. He's not an idiot.

He wasn't as bad as a lot of guys, but he wasn't a saint neither.

 

[True2tRA]

Osborne was probably always more Achilles than most would want to admit. I doubt he was oblivious to all the steroids and things that went on. He's not an idiot.

He wasn't as bad as a lot of guys, but he wasn't a saint neither.

But if he wasn't doing nearly the amount of rule bending as many of the other guys, then it still makes him Hector and them Achilles. Right?

 

[True2tRA]

Was Osborne Hector?

I think the argument can be made that he didn't win it all until he abandoned the Hector identity. Not entirely, but just enough.

That's bullsh#t. I'm getting real tired of this revisionist history that wants to claim that Osborne went a little dirty to make it over the hump. And primarily because of the Lawrence Phillips thing. Read some of Tom's book on the subject and find out why he really gave LP too many chances. Spoiler alert- it wasn't to win a natty, it was to do all he could (yes, probably too much in hindsight) to help a young man who just couldn't be helped.

It was by no means Phillips alone. Terrell Farley was a serial drunk driver who couldn't stop f'ing up. Christian Peter was arrested 8 times at UNL, including 4 assaults on women. Jason Peter became addicted to crack, heroin and hookers. There were others. It was noted at the time that some of the faster, better players Osborne was recruiting, particularly on defense, were coming from rougher neighborhoods, and didn't even pretend to want an education from the University of Nebraska.

I'm serious when I ask this question, because it's always been what I've been told since I was just turning 10 years old when TO retired.

When TO changed his focus on the "type" of player, it was geared much more on speed right? Recruiting track athletes and teaching/developing them how to play D1 football. Also, part of this was due to the change in scheme defensively correct? Changing from at 5-2 monster to a 4-3?

I don't know that TO necessarily decided to recruit rougher neighborhoods just to win, but out of necessity to find speed to run the 4-3 and match the programs that had the luxury of easy recruiting.

I could be way off, but thats what I was always told as a kid.

I agree. There seems to be a whole lot of going back and painting Tom Osborne as a liar and a cheat. I get pretty tired of it myself. He did some things that some might question but he had his reasons and those reasons weren't strictly because he wanted to win. Winning wasn't everything to TO, in my opinion. It was a lot, but it wasn't everything.

Also, Osborne didn't recruit track stars and turn them into football players. He just recruited faster football players. Some of those football players may have ran track too but I think that's a strange way to put it by saying he recruited track stars and developed them into football players. Guys that may have been a safety in previous seasons moved into linebacker positions.

It's a lesson Bo Pelini was gonna probably learn in another ten to twenty years. This whole idea of a size upgrade needed to contend in the Big Ten is a sham. Speed dominates this game. Always has, always will. I figure if it took Osborne ten years to figure it out then it would probably take Pelini at least twice as long.

 

[NUinID]

It has been a long time since I read the Iliad, but my recollection of Achilles was that of a tortured soul. He was tormented by the faces of all the men that he had killed. Yes he was ruthless in his fighting, but was really pissed at Hector for killing his nephew or something like that.

Hector was a Trojan prince and their champion. He was every bit a ruthless fighter as Achilles. Achilles was just better.

I guess I don't think it is a very good analogy to win at all costs in football.

With that being said, I do think TO is no different than any other coach. He wants to win and has always gone after some marginal character guys. . LP, Abdul Mohammed, Riley Washington, Peter brothers et al were not choir boys, but neither were Mike Rozier, Irving Fryer, Danny Noonan, Kevin Raymaker, Ricky Simmons. I think you want as many high character guys that you can get, but you have to take chances on players that are exceptional that you think you can help grow and change.

For the most part I think TO was successful at doing this. LP was his biggest failure, but he was also probably the biggest risk he ever took with a player. LP was just so talented that he was worth the risk.

 

[Joe_5700]

Parker Lewis because he can't...