[Spoilers] Star Wars Episode VII The Force Awakens Spoiler Thread

[zoogs]

Let's talk music. I've been thinking of how to put to words how much I enjoy these new themes and how they fit their characters and the movie, but as it turns out, composer John Williams has found the perfect ones already (LA Times):

1. Rey's Theme is light but determined. Williams describes it as "strong and thoughtful", evoking an "adventurer" without suggesting a love story. It strikes a tone that feels more hobbity than Star Wars (with its grand, brassy melodies), but we're at once at home with it.

2. Kylo's Theme (as well as the character) is my favorite. It's dark and brooding, recalling Vader while lacking the former's iconic factor. Williams calls it "ruminative". Where Vader's theme projects darkness and power, Kylo's theme, and Kylo himself, are being consumed by it.

Here are a couple articles which capture what I love most about Ren:

1. http://io9.gizmodo.com/kylo-ren-is-everything-that-anakin-skywalker-should-hav-1749606647

2. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/12/27/emo-kylo-ren-star-wars-the-force-awakens-polarizing-villain.html:

But that face—that of a normal, vulnerable young man—is the most subversively terrifying thing about J.J. Abrams’ reimagining of A New Hope. Rather than pure evil, Ren is something far more familiar: He is human. Just like the real-life young men with minds clouded by fear, hate, and anger who commit unspeakable acts in our world every day. (Daily Beast)

 

[Redux]

As pointed out by saunders, the Snoke theme and Plagueis themes sound eerily similar. After some more reading I am more convinced than ever they are the same person....errr same being.

Those upset that Kylo Ren was bested by a force noob, here is my theory:

Kylo Ren while under Luke Skywalkers tutelage succumbed to the same teenage angst that his grandfather had, and also like him he slaughtered a bunch of youngling learners. One of those younglings survived and was hidden away by Luke, that survivor is Rey. Whether or not she is a Solo, a Skywalker or someone completely different is not important yet. If she was being trained by Luke as a youngling her powers were likely very strong but raw, when orphaned on Jakku they essentially went into remission only to re-emerge in the presence of another strong force user, one whom she unknowingly has a strong past with.

Okay, nothing ground breaking there. So why was Kylo defeated so easily once Rey unleashed her force power? Because he isn't a Sith. Abrams even says as much in interviews, plus at the end Snoke says it is time for Ren to start/continue/finish his training. Abrams also implies Snoke is not a Sith, but why would he be training Ren then? I think Snoke not being a Sith is a lie, I think Snoke is Darth Plagueis. He survived his murder via his immense knowledge of the dark side but likely went into hiding, as force weilders tend to do, until he could heal or whatever. Maybe he was waiting for Palpatines reign to come to an end, either way. Snoke/Plagueis is now going to make Kylo Ren a true sith lord, his task of killing his father turned him fully to the dark side and his status as a sith can now be completed, in doing so he will be much more powerful next time we see him...as will Rey we assume, hanging with Luke.

 

[zoogs]

I just can't fathom Snoke's identity being meaningful in that way. It would be a dramatic reveal and while some will find it neat, a lot of people will simply ask..."Who?" Plus, apart from connecting a dot to the prequels that are so far being kept at distance, what purpose does the tie-in serve to the story? Snoke's fine being a separate emerging threat, and the originals are better if Luke actually accomplished something other than the master plan of the master master. Evil can persist without a "guy behind the guy behind the guy" theme running along.

Regarding the (awesome) fights at the end, Kylo is really just kind of a noob himself. I doubt anyone could take him seriously without his dark side witchcraft, which to begin with are more about raw strength than skill. He's still just exploring the dark side, and stumbled into a serious nascent superstar in Rey.

Before Rey's awakening moment at the end, Kylo was clearly overwhelming both her and Finn without trying to kill either. He wanted to teach Rey (as well as bring her to Snoke, remember). Rey was also jabbing with the saber like it was her bo staff, which I thought was a nice touch; she was clearly feeling about blindly. With Finn, it seemed like battle-lust: it'd probably been years, if ever, since Kylo had been challenged to a true lightsaber duel. He probably wanted a glorious clash. After Finn managed to notch a glancing blow, Kylo dispatched him pretty quickly.

I do think we're going to see a transformed and far more realized Ren in the next installment.

 

[Mierin]

Brainwashing can wear off, or maybe it never stick to begin with. He was basically a janitor before he saw action, maybe he never bought in and said eff this when actually called to duty.

Not buying that. They raised him basically from birth. He had literally no one other experiences. Brainwashing not sticking would just make him a vegetable.

From birth was nevere confirmed. He could have been an older orphan that never saw them as a trustworthy caretaker. We also don't know what tactics the First Order uses to push their agenda on orphan Stormtroopers.
Obviously seeing Kylo Ren murder some people and give the order to take every innocent bystander out was enough for him to see they were bad.

There's a photo of him used when the bad guys are talking about his defection and he looks to be around 4. I said basically from birth and that's what I meant.
In response to whoever mentioned that the guy who died was his friend and all that, I had no problem at all with him defecting. I had a problem with how well adjusted and knowledgeable of outside events he was.

 

[Redux]

Brainwashing can wear off, or maybe it never stick to begin with. He was basically a janitor before he saw action, maybe he never bought in and said eff this when actually called to duty.

Not buying that. They raised him basically from birth. He had literally no one other experiences. Brainwashing not sticking would just make him a vegetable.

From birth was nevere confirmed. He could have been an older orphan that never saw them as a trustworthy caretaker. We also don't know what tactics the First Order uses to push their agenda on orphan Stormtroopers.Obviously seeing Kylo Ren murder some people and give the order to take every innocent bystander out was enough for him to see they were bad.

There's a photo of him used when the bad guys are talking about his defection and he looks to be around 4. I said basically from birth and that's what I meant.In response to whoever mentioned that the guy who died was his friend and all that, I had no problem at all with him defecting. I had a problem with how well adjusted and knowledgeable of outside events he was.

Him being more well adjusted than you would expect from childhood brainwashing can be explained fairly easily. Think of the first order as grade school. You accept what the adults say as fact and that it. As you get older, middle school, you begin to question things and form pacts with peers. Hanging with his "cliques" Finn could have easily learned of the Skywalker/Solo legacy.

Really, chances are Finn isn't the only Stormtrooper who questions the motives they have had pushed on them. If you listen to the other soldiers, they don't sound like brainwashed slaves either. Their personal personas are no different than say a soldier in our own military, the brainwashed tag is probably an exxageration of aorts.

 

[Mierin]

Brainwashing can wear off, or maybe it never stick to begin with. He was basically a janitor before he saw action, maybe he never bought in and said eff this when actually called to duty.

Not buying that. They raised him basically from birth. He had literally no one other experiences. Brainwashing not sticking would just make him a vegetable.

From birth was nevere confirmed. He could have been an older orphan that never saw them as a trustworthy caretaker. We also don't know what tactics the First Order uses to push their agenda on orphan Stormtroopers.Obviously seeing Kylo Ren murder some people and give the order to take every innocent bystander out was enough for him to see they were bad.

There's a photo of him used when the bad guys are talking about his defection and he looks to be around 4. I said basically from birth and that's what I meant.In response to whoever mentioned that the guy who died was his friend and all that, I had no problem at all with him defecting. I had a problem with how well adjusted and knowledgeable of outside events he was.

Him being more well adjusted than you would expect from childhood brainwashing can be explained fairly easily. Think of the first order as grade school. You accept what the adults say as fact and that it. As you get older, middle school, you begin to question things and form pacts with peers. Hanging with his "cliques" Finn could have easily learned of the Skywalker/Solo legacy.
Really, chances are Finn isn't the only Stormtrooper who questions the motives they have had pushed on them. If you listen to the other soldiers, they don't sound like brainwashed slaves either. Their personal personas are no different than say a soldier in our own military, the brainwashed tag is probably an exxageration of aorts.

All of them were isolated from the world. Our military is not.

 

[Redux]

To be fair we don't really know how connected to the "outside world" they are. Most were stationed on Starkiller base, but not all of them were. Otherwise the First Order was wiped out. Bouncing from post to post they would be fairly familiar with society.

 

[zoogs]

Yeah, what are the Stormtroopers really is an interesting question. We tend to think of them as droids; I mean, the clones in the prequels were portrayed exactly like that, and they still use the term "programming".

The recruitment is akin to child soldier conscription, and certainly there's an indoctrination program...but they're also human. Surely when they are off duty, these guys smoke, drink, shoot the breeze...watch shows? Talk about girls? Finn's first encounter with Rey was amusingly awkward. He clearly had built up these ideas of what interaction with a woman should be like, but it also seemed like his first time talking to one.

I think a pervading theme is that these First Order guys don't see themselves as evil (although there's some twisted world where "dark" is "good"). The troopers aren't decidedly sinister machines by design, so much as humans conditioned to believe in a cause (re: the visibly angry one shouting "traitor!" at Finn). They're probably fighting for order (re: Hux's speech), peace, even freedom? Then amidst that, we have Finn having an 'Are we the Baddies?' moment. Phasma, Hux, and the other un-helmeted officers of the First Order are human, too. They might even have families.

It all begs a lot of questions. Was Finn the only one to break, or just the rare one that succeeds? Why indeed is he all of a sudden unflinchingly killing his ex-comrades? And are these really more Nazi troops or legions of Rome than mindless drones?

 

[Mierin]

Yeah, what are the Stormtroopers really is an interesting question. We tend to think of them as droids; I mean, the clones in the prequels were portrayed exactly like that, and they still use the term "programming".

The recruitment is akin to child soldier conscription, and certainly there's an indoctrination program...but they're also human. Surely when they are off duty, these guys smoke, drink, shoot the breeze...watch shows? Talk about girls? Finn's first encounter with Rey was amusingly awkward. He clearly had built up these ideas of what interaction with a woman should be like, but it also seemed like his first time talking to one.

I think a pervading theme is that these First Order guys don't see themselves as evil (although there's some twisted world where "dark" is "good"). The troopers aren't decidedly sinister machines by design, so much as humans conditioned to believe in a cause (re: the visibly angry one shouting "traitor!" at Finn). They're probably fighting for order (re: Hux's speech), peace, even freedom? Then amidst that, we have Finn having an

I actually wasn't sure whether Phasma was human or droid. I've heard (maybe in this thread, not looking now) she'll be more involved in the next movie. Although it was implied they got rid of her.

 

[Redux]

I don't doubt we are treated to more Captain Phasma in the next episode, along with the rest of the Knights of Ren.

 

[Enhance]

I just can't fathom Snoke's identity being meaningful in that way. It would be a dramatic reveal and while some will find it neat, a lot of people will simply ask..."Who?" Plus, apart from connecting a dot to the prequels that are so far being kept at distance, what purpose does the tie-in serve to the story? Snoke's fine being a separate emerging threat, and the originals are better if Luke actually accomplished something other than the master plan of the master master. Evil can persist without a "guy behind the guy behind the guy" theme running along.

Regarding the (awesome) fights at the end, Kylo is really just kind of a noob himself. I doubt anyone could take him seriously without his dark side witchcraft, which to begin with are more about raw strength than skill. He's still just exploring the dark side, and stumbled into a serious nascent superstar in Rey.

Before Rey's awakening moment at the end, Kylo was clearly overwhelming both her and Finn without trying to kill either. He wanted to teach Rey (as well as bring her to Snoke, remember). Rey was also jabbing with the saber like it was her bo staff, which I thought was a nice touch; she was clearly feeling about blindly. With Finn, it seemed like battle-lust: it'd probably been years, if ever, since Kylo had been challenged to a true lightsaber duel. He probably wanted a glorious clash. After Finn managed to notch a glancing blow, Kylo dispatched him pretty quickly.

I do think we're going to see a transformed and far more realized Ren in the next installment.

This is as good a take as I've seen, particularly how Rey was able to overtake Kylo.

He reminds me much of a young Anakin in the sense that he's overconfident. And, I don't think Kylo is really a full-fledged Sith Lord. For example, Count Dooku easily dispatched of a young Jedi Padawan Anakin, but I don't think any of us would confuse Kylo as being in the same realm of the Force as Count Dooku was. Perhaps he's not as strong as he is perceived?

And perhaps Rey is much stronger than we realize, too. Anakin was born from midichlorians and the highest count ever seen, higher than Master Yoda. Rey very well could be of the same ilk - born of the midichlorians and exceptionally powerful, more than people may realize. She figured out how to mind control without ever really being told how. A lightsaber called to her as if powered by the Force itself.

There's clearly a lot more to Rey than what the surface suggests.

Edit - as a side note, clearly Rey has to win otherwise it wouldn't be a good movie.

 

[Enhance]

I don't doubt we are treated to more Captain Phasma in the next episode, along with the rest of the Knights of Ren.

Agreed. That was one character I was somewhat bummed/disappointed didn't have a bigger role. Capt. Phasma was one of the first characters revealed in early trailers and I expected them to be a bit of a 'dirty work' character much like Boba Fett was.

Two more movies to find out!

 

[Redux]

I just can't fathom Snoke's identity being meaningful in that way. It would be a dramatic reveal and while some will find it neat, a lot of people will simply ask..."Who?" Plus, apart from connecting a dot to the prequels that are so far being kept at distance, what purpose does the tie-in serve to the story? Snoke's fine being a separate emerging threat, and the originals are better if Luke actually accomplished something other than the master plan of the master master. Evil can persist without a "guy behind the guy behind the guy" theme running along.

Regarding the (awesome) fights at the end, Kylo is really just kind of a noob himself. I doubt anyone could take him seriously without his dark side witchcraft, which to begin with are more about raw strength than skill. He's still just exploring the dark side, and stumbled into a serious nascent superstar in Rey.

Before Rey's awakening moment at the end, Kylo was clearly overwhelming both her and Finn without trying to kill either. He wanted to teach Rey (as well as bring her to Snoke, remember). Rey was also jabbing with the saber like it was her bo staff, which I thought was a nice touch; she was clearly feeling about blindly. With Finn, it seemed like battle-lust: it'd probably been years, if ever, since Kylo had been challenged to a true lightsaber duel. He probably wanted a glorious clash. After Finn managed to notch a glancing blow, Kylo dispatched him pretty quickly.

I do think we're going to see a transformed and far more realized Ren in the next installment.

This is as good a take as I've seen, particularly how Rey was able to overtake Kylo.
He reminds me much of a young Anakin in the sense that he's overconfident. And, I don't think Kylo is really a full-fledged Sith Lord. For example, Count Dooku easily dispatched of a young Jedi Padawan Anakin, but I don't think any of us would confuse Kylo as being in the same realm of the Force as Count Dooku was. Perhaps he's not as strong as he is perceived?

And perhaps Rey is much stronger than we realize, too. Anakin was born from midichlorians and the highest count ever seen, higher than Master Yoda. Rey very well could be of the same ilk - born of the midichlorians and exceptionally powerful, more than people may realize. She figured out how to mind control without ever really being told how. A lightsaber called to her as if powered by the Force itself.

There's clearly a lot more to Rey than what the surface suggests.

Edit - as a side note, clearly Rey has to win otherwise it wouldn't be a good movie.

Kylo is not a Sith Lord, that has been confirmed. Like Zoogs is saying, he is rusty.

And if Rey was once a paduwan and Ren is still merely an aprentice of the dark side they are likely evenly matched.

 

[StPaulHusker]

Is episode 8 where the Klingons attack? I'm totally going to see that one.

 

[Redux]

Is episode 8 where the Klingons attack? I'm totally going to see that one.

You get the hell out of here...