[Spoilers] Star Wars Episode VII The Force Awakens Spoiler Thread
- Thread starter Mierin
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A couple things, mainly referencing Mavric and some of the following discussion.
First, Star Wars has always been about the Skywalkers and likely always will be. All the visual representations focus on that family, and a significant portion of the written lore is about them, as well. Hell, the original novelization of A New Hope in 1976 (six months prior to the release of the movie) was called Star Wars: The Adventures of Luke Skywalker. It was a ghostwritten novel but the story was crafted with Lucas. If you have a problem with the story continuing to revolve around Skywalker, I think you will always be disappointed. I for one love the continuation and their adaptations.
Second, I think many of the story line criticisms are fair because I agree with them, but lets hold up on criticizing convenience and things like 'oh, of course that would happen right then.' Movies, particularly Star Wars, have always been about convenience. Oh, look, Obi-Wan and Vader are fighting allowing us to get to the Falcon and escape the Death Star. Oh, look, it just so happens the place Queen Amidala landed on Tatooine is near a town that's inhabited by The Chosen One.
You get my point. If you have a problem with them that's fine, but then you have to have a problem with all other six movies because they've all had those moments.
First, Star Wars has always been about the Skywalkers and likely always will be. All the visual representations focus on that family, and a significant portion of the written lore is about them, as well. Hell, the original novelization of A New Hope in 1976 (six months prior to the release of the movie) was called Star Wars: The Adventures of Luke Skywalker. It was a ghostwritten novel but the story was crafted with Lucas. If you have a problem with the story continuing to revolve around Skywalker, I think you will always be disappointed. I for one love the continuation and their adaptations.
Second, I think many of the story line criticisms are fair because I agree with them, but lets hold up on criticizing convenience and things like 'oh, of course that would happen right then.' Movies, particularly Star Wars, have always been about convenience. Oh, look, Obi-Wan and Vader are fighting allowing us to get to the Falcon and escape the Death Star. Oh, look, it just so happens the place Queen Amidala landed on Tatooine is near a town that's inhabited by The Chosen One.
You get my point. If you have a problem with them that's fine, but then you have to have a problem with all other six movies because they've all had those moments.
zoogs
Assistant Coach
Star Wars under George Lucas was all about the Skywalker family. He even wrote material for the third trilogy, but it was rejected. I mean, I think the EU, now Legends, has already delivered on questions like "So who does Luke end up marrying?" (A former elite assassin employed by Vader and the Emperor. Heh.)
Apart from tying into what was done before, I don't think this needs to be about the Skywalkers anymore. Star Wars has always been about family, I suppose, but 'family' and 'inheritance' can transcend genetic material. Heck, the the Force itself embodies that idea. The story I'm personally interested in seeing playing out is the triumph of new faces (chief among them Rey's, but others, too) in receiving the (Skywalker/Solo/Organa-Skywalker) legacy torch pass amidst the fall of the designated successor (Kylo Ren) into insignificance. They can use whatever plot devices and silly space machines they need to get us there!
* An exception would be if the connection were to Phasma. I'm a little fond of the theory that she's a Resistance agent. Or perhaps a relative to Rey through whom (and Luke) she comes to explore her burning questions of family and belonging.
Apart from tying into what was done before, I don't think this needs to be about the Skywalkers anymore. Star Wars has always been about family, I suppose, but 'family' and 'inheritance' can transcend genetic material. Heck, the the Force itself embodies that idea. The story I'm personally interested in seeing playing out is the triumph of new faces (chief among them Rey's, but others, too) in receiving the (Skywalker/Solo/Organa-Skywalker) legacy torch pass amidst the fall of the designated successor (Kylo Ren) into insignificance. They can use whatever plot devices and silly space machines they need to get us there!
* An exception would be if the connection were to Phasma. I'm a little fond of the theory that she's a Resistance agent. Or perhaps a relative to Rey through whom (and Luke) she comes to explore her burning questions of family and belonging.
I'll admit that I'm not 100% familiar with all the expanded universe material that's been written out there, but from what I've been reading recently in articles, it doesn't sound like any of that stuff is now a part of the official Star Wars timeline. So, the future movies will have a lot of leeway in terms of what direction they can go and if they even want to address things like Luke potentially getting married.
That's also why I feel like people are getting a little too critical when it comes to Skywalker I've seen it now twice, and both times I walked away feeling that this story is mostly about Rey and Skywalker is more or less just an objective to reach. We don't know really why or what exactly the Resistance wants do with him, we don't know how his and Rey's relationship will develop. I mean... Skywalker is not the protagonist any more - Rey is. That's why it doesn't rub me the wrong way I guess because I don't look at this and feel like we're just continuing to bleed the Skywalker storyline.
But, to me, Star Wars has and pretty much will always be about the Skywalkers to some degree, and I don't have a problem with it. I also feel pretty confident saying future Star Wars may not have the similar mass appeal if the Skywalkers aren't somehow a part of the storyline. People will watch because they're Star Wars, of course, but seeing how that piece of Jedi history plays out is a massive pull for a lot of fans.
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I legitimately expected Kylo Ren to get his hand chopped off in this one but then I remembered that this is exclusively a second movie plot point.
I'm not sure if you think I was complaining about it being about the Skywalker family. I have no problem with that and I agree that's where the story is. I just didn't like the "Luke in exile" stroyline. I just don't see him going into hiding like that. Maybe it will make more sense in the next movie. If anything, I would think he would have been more involved in fighting the burgeoning First Order.
I realize there has to be some coincidence to get the new characters hooked up with the old ones. Even my suggested alternate relies on coincidence. I just thought there was too much of it in that transition. Especially the part about not getting anything further from Ren and Hux than two TIE fighters.
Saunders
Heisman Trophy Winner
Whoa, whoa, whoa.... the EE's of LOTR are so much better, especially FOTR. Don't make me nerd rage on you...
zoogs
Assistant Coach
I actually thought Kylo's hand flew off in the last fight!
I mean, life story details are fanservice and it's fine to have, as long as it's not the point of the films.
Luke was never the most interesting character himself. He's the archetypal Monomyth hero, and the OT was his coming of age story. Star Wars is about heroes, coming of age, thematic battles between Light and Dark, and lightsabers and X-wings a lot more than it is about particular family names and particular characters, IMO. At least, I think TFA demonstrates that potential fully.
It's also interesting in that his sister Leia is still right in the thick of it. While Luke has gone off attaining higher and higher levels of zen, where surely it's quite lonely at the top, his compatriots have both returned to simply doing what they always did. Leading resistance forces, smuggling. It's a sad divergence, but probably one that was coming if Luke alone were on the path to Jedi mastery.
We also know that one of the things he tried to do was resurrect the Jedi Order, and that the ruin of those plans had a profound effect on him. Perhaps he senses how fragile and how close to the precipice the Jedi truly are. Maybe he's disillusioned with the idea of training more Jedi as they seem to have such a penchant for falling. Maybe he was disillusioned with himself -- perhaps he wasn't nearly wise or ready enough to try to form a new Order when he did. And maybe he doesn't trust himself not to fall, either, knowing how devastating that would be given his power (that was one of my favorite fan theories about his exile before the release of the movie).
In any case, I hope they answer this well.
Anakin went a little off script on that one. Jedi don't typically produce offspring, so I'm not sure the Force has to be hereditary. Many of the Jedi we do know about, including Yoda and Obi-Wan for example, were never introduced to us as sons of previous force masters. We've never gotten an origin story for a Jedi like that, so it's about time, right?
Yeah, that's what I meant by "Legends" -- it's no longer canon. I'm not that familiar with it, either. I used Luke's wife being a former elite assassin of Palpatine who hunted him in the background of the original trilogy, and was even present at Jabba's palace, as an example of the weakness of the idea of needing to tell everything that happened to these characters we loved.
I mean, life story details are fanservice and it's fine to have, as long as it's not the point of the films.
Luke was never the most interesting character himself. He's the archetypal Monomyth hero, and the OT was his coming of age story. Star Wars is about heroes, coming of age, thematic battles between Light and Dark, and lightsabers and X-wings a lot more than it is about particular family names and particular characters, IMO. At least, I think TFA demonstrates that potential fully.
Yeah, I'm very curious to find out the whys of Luke disappearing. One idea is that he's risen above dealing with the mundane conflicts of mortals, in the way that certain beings in the LOTR did not deign to concern themselves even with Sauron's efforts on the world. I wonder what that would say about Snoke and Ren -- are they viewed as insignificant to Luke? Surely they aren't too powerful?
It's also interesting in that his sister Leia is still right in the thick of it. While Luke has gone off attaining higher and higher levels of zen, where surely it's quite lonely at the top, his compatriots have both returned to simply doing what they always did. Leading resistance forces, smuggling. It's a sad divergence, but probably one that was coming if Luke alone were on the path to Jedi mastery.
We also know that one of the things he tried to do was resurrect the Jedi Order, and that the ruin of those plans had a profound effect on him. Perhaps he senses how fragile and how close to the precipice the Jedi truly are. Maybe he's disillusioned with the idea of training more Jedi as they seem to have such a penchant for falling. Maybe he was disillusioned with himself -- perhaps he wasn't nearly wise or ready enough to try to form a new Order when he did. And maybe he doesn't trust himself not to fall, either, knowing how devastating that would be given his power (that was one of my favorite fan theories about his exile before the release of the movie).
In any case, I hope they answer this well.
Haha, uh oh...I don't know, I do really like the extra scenes and that there's so much of it. The last time I watched the extended versions, I was showing LOTR to someone else and the pacing just felt a little uneven with all of them in there. I think they're maybe better for a second viewing than a first viewing. The original cuts were fine.
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Landlord
Banned
I've always been really interested in Luke's story because it seems like so much happens off screen that you never really get an answer for. People with expansive EU knowledge will know a lot more than me, but one example is how does Luke go from still fairly sniffly-nosed kid to badass confident Jedi in between ESB and ROTJ? Did he go back to train with Yoda a 3rd time that we never see on screen? Just seems like a LOT of his development towards legitimate Jedi Knight is fairly unexplained, and while the hive minded, exclusive indoctrination methods of the Jedi Order are kind of disturbing (not training anyone older than basically an infant), it did obviously result in much more polished, emotionally removed Jedi knights. Who/where/when did Luke rise to that level of stoicism? Did he ever?
Unrelated, I hope people will eventually jump off the "it basically just copies A New Hope" bandwagon. Look - the original Star Wars story wasn't really all that original regardless, nor were a lot of the thematic elements/filmmaking techniques. Like zoogs said, it's a classic monomyth. The call to adventure, the belly of the whale, road of trials, etc., are all classic story elements. They were packaged and realized into an overall product that was new and refreshing, but that's what creativity is; remixing old ideas.
Besides that, there is plenty new in TFA. Our first real protagonist perspective is a stormtrooper, and we get some exploration of the humanity of stormtroopers. People want to compare Rey to this trilogy's Luke, but Luke was a whiny a$$ little kid. Rey is strong, confident, determined and formidable. Kylo Ren, even as a potentially emo angsty teen, is a refreshing perspective for a villain in a universe that has always had the most elementary villain archetypes imaginable. In fact, I'm not really even sure if he will completely fulfill a villain role or not - in a universe that has always been outrageously heavy handed towards good vs. evil, kudos to Abrams for injecting some shades of grey.
More than anything, the ending of TFA is a lot more similar to the ending of ESB than ANH, new death star and all. A New Hope had a very happy, successful, feel good ending. TFA an entire solar system gets destroyed, one of the most beloved characters dies, one of the new guard nearly dies (how the hell do you heal from a full lightsaber slice to the back?), and while it's "good" that they find Luke, there's still a very grim sense to it all.
Unrelated, I hope people will eventually jump off the "it basically just copies A New Hope" bandwagon. Look - the original Star Wars story wasn't really all that original regardless, nor were a lot of the thematic elements/filmmaking techniques. Like zoogs said, it's a classic monomyth. The call to adventure, the belly of the whale, road of trials, etc., are all classic story elements. They were packaged and realized into an overall product that was new and refreshing, but that's what creativity is; remixing old ideas.
Besides that, there is plenty new in TFA. Our first real protagonist perspective is a stormtrooper, and we get some exploration of the humanity of stormtroopers. People want to compare Rey to this trilogy's Luke, but Luke was a whiny a$$ little kid. Rey is strong, confident, determined and formidable. Kylo Ren, even as a potentially emo angsty teen, is a refreshing perspective for a villain in a universe that has always had the most elementary villain archetypes imaginable. In fact, I'm not really even sure if he will completely fulfill a villain role or not - in a universe that has always been outrageously heavy handed towards good vs. evil, kudos to Abrams for injecting some shades of grey.
More than anything, the ending of TFA is a lot more similar to the ending of ESB than ANH, new death star and all. A New Hope had a very happy, successful, feel good ending. TFA an entire solar system gets destroyed, one of the most beloved characters dies, one of the new guard nearly dies (how the hell do you heal from a full lightsaber slice to the back?), and while it's "good" that they find Luke, there's still a very grim sense to it all.
Redux
Assistant Coach
In response to Zoogs: (too lazy to delete 90% of the quote)
True that lineage isn't exactly a Jedi staple, more of a rare occurance. But that was under the Jedi Council. Since the termination of the Jedi Order by Darth Vader and the senate being dissolved, Jedi became quite scarce. Those that survived the purge and went into hiding led normal lives and many took on spouses and had children. Luke may not have reproduced, but other Jedi during Luke's time as a farm hand likely did.
True that lineage isn't exactly a Jedi staple, more of a rare occurance. But that was under the Jedi Council. Since the termination of the Jedi Order by Darth Vader and the senate being dissolved, Jedi became quite scarce. Those that survived the purge and went into hiding led normal lives and many took on spouses and had children. Luke may not have reproduced, but other Jedi during Luke's time as a farm hand likely did.
Redux
Assistant Coach
Well said.
I think a lot of Luke's training was completed during Empire, but I too am curious if that was it or if there were other sessions. He makes a dramatic jump between films so one would assume he and Yoda hung out a bit more or at the least Yoda sent him on some journeys.
Landlord
Banned
Since the midichlorians are still canon even though nobody likes them, it makes perfect sense that force sensitivity would be passed down paternally or genetically. Like it wouldn't make sense otherwise.
I've had a lot of thoughts about the idea of "balance to the Force" lately. First of all, weird baseless prophecy that is a convenient plot device, but anyways... the prequel Jedi Council believed Anakin would be the chosen one to bring balance. Well...it's assumed that they mean that he makes everything good and only the light side with the Sith eradicated. But that's not really balance, is it? Maybe Anakin brought actual balance to the Force by ushering in, as awful as the way it happened was, an age where Jedi were not these emotionless, stoic, removed from culture cult but were real people with real life experiences and feelings, that had temptations and dispositions and behaviors going both ways.