Armstrong Still a Possibility for Minnesota Game

[bugeater17]

If Armstrong is cleared to play, Fyfe still starts and will play until Minnesota causes him to turn it over twice. Then Tommy comes in.

As I posted in your status update, there's no way you can do that as a coach. If TA can play he starts. If he can't start he doesn't play. Why? Because if he can't start it means he can't play. There's no gray area in concussions. Either you are cleared or you aren't.

I understand if he's cleared he can play.

But, if he is just skating past the line to play they may consider letting him sit unless actually needed to get the win. Why risk longer term injury against Minnesota if we don't have to? Maybe he's cleared, but he isn't playing well enough to start yet from some lingering effects. It's just not that black and white.

Actually, concussion protocol is pretty black and white. Either he's cleared to play or he's not.

The point being made is that even if he passes the protocol - there could be reason to still hold him out, unless they decide they need him for the win at some point during the game.

If he passes the protocol he starts. I see no reason to even contemplate sitting him "unless needed". What would that reason be?

If he has some lingering fatigue or vertigo/dizzyness. If he isn't cleared before he can practice at all, how do they know what his actual status is? Or say he gets cleared tomorrow, then during practice it's clear he isn't all there yet.

This just isn't how the concussion protocol works. He will not have any symptoms if he is cleared through the protocol. I don't know why people aren't listening or reading the link from Sam McKewon's tweet.
If he is cleared, he is good to go 100%. There is no other way to do it in concussion protocol. I don't know how much clearer the multiple posters in this thread can make this.

"If he is cleared, he is good to go 100%."This statement is somewhat naive.

Yes, the protocol is binary, pass or fail. However, the symptomatic data used to arrive at that binary decision, is subjective and relies upon the report of symptoms by an extremely competitive individual in a culture that values toughness. See where the problem may lie? Think a patient/player may lie in order to get past the protocol? It's not like it's hard to figure out what the "right" answers are to their questions.

Determining pass/fail takes a bit more interpretation than you seem to understand.

I'll trust the doctors to make the best decision that they can, with the information that they have.

Thank you ^

Actually you are somewhat wrong. I've gone through the concussion protocol used by many schools. Not only is it subjective and symptom free reporting but there are multiple cognitive baseline tests that must be passed as well. Some are physical examination but the majority are a computer program.

 

[307husker]

If Armstrong is cleared to play, Fyfe still starts and will play until Minnesota causes him to turn it over twice. Then Tommy comes in.

As I posted in your status update, there's no way you can do that as a coach. If TA can play he starts. If he can't start he doesn't play. Why? Because if he can't start it means he can't play. There's no gray area in concussions. Either you are cleared or you aren't.

I understand if he's cleared he can play.

But, if he is just skating past the line to play they may consider letting him sit unless actually needed to get the win. Why risk longer term injury against Minnesota if we don't have to? Maybe he's cleared, but he isn't playing well enough to start yet from some lingering effects. It's just not that black and white.

Actually, concussion protocol is pretty black and white. Either he's cleared to play or he's not.

The point being made is that even if he passes the protocol - there could be reason to still hold him out, unless they decide they need him for the win at some point during the game.

If he passes the protocol he starts. I see no reason to even contemplate sitting him "unless needed". What would that reason be?

If he has some lingering fatigue or vertigo/dizzyness. If he isn't cleared before he can practice at all, how do they know what his actual status is? Or say he gets cleared tomorrow, then during practice it's clear he isn't all there yet.

This just isn't how the concussion protocol works. He will not have any symptoms if he is cleared through the protocol. I don't know why people aren't listening or reading the link from Sam McKewon's tweet.
If he is cleared, he is good to go 100%. There is no other way to do it in concussion protocol. I don't know how much clearer the multiple posters in this thread can make this.

"If he is cleared, he is good to go 100%."This statement is somewhat naive.

Yes, the protocol is binary, pass or fail. However, the symptomatic data used to arrive at that binary decision, is subjective and relies upon the report of symptoms by an extremely competitive individual in a culture that values toughness. See where the problem may lie? Think a patient/player may lie in order to get past the protocol? It's not like it's hard to figure out what the "right" answers are to their questions.

Determining pass/fail takes a bit more interpretation than you seem to understand.

I'll trust the doctors to make the best decision that they can, with the information that they have.

Thank you ^

Actually you are somewhat wrong. I've gone through the concussion protocol used by many schools. Not only is it subjective and symptom free reporting but there are multiple cognitive baseline tests that must be passed as well. Some are physical examination but the majority are a computer program.

The key phrase was "symptomatic data". I doubt that he would even be practicing if he weren't able to pass the objective cognitive portions of the evaluation.

 

[bale]

If Armstrong is cleared to play, Fyfe still starts and will play until Minnesota causes him to turn it over twice. Then Tommy comes in.

As I posted in your status update, there's no way you can do that as a coach. If TA can play he starts. If he can't start he doesn't play. Why? Because if he can't start it means he can't play. There's no gray area in concussions. Either you are cleared or you aren't.

I understand if he's cleared he can play.

But, if he is just skating past the line to play they may consider letting him sit unless actually needed to get the win. Why risk longer term injury against Minnesota if we don't have to? Maybe he's cleared, but he isn't playing well enough to start yet from some lingering effects. It's just not that black and white.

Actually, concussion protocol is pretty black and white. Either he's cleared to play or he's not.

The point being made is that even if he passes the protocol - there could be reason to still hold him out, unless they decide they need him for the win at some point during the game.

If he passes the protocol he starts. I see no reason to even contemplate sitting him "unless needed". What would that reason be?

If he has some lingering fatigue or vertigo/dizzyness. If he isn't cleared before he can practice at all, how do they know what his actual status is? Or say he gets cleared tomorrow, then during practice it's clear he isn't all there yet.

This just isn't how the concussion protocol works. He will not have any symptoms if he is cleared through the protocol. I don't know why people aren't listening or reading the link from Sam McKewon's tweet.

If he is cleared, he is good to go 100%. There is no other way to do it in concussion protocol. I don't know how much clearer the multiple posters in this thread can make this.

"If he is cleared, he is good to go 100%."

This statement is somewhat naive.

Yes, the protocol is binary, pass or fail. However, the symptomatic data used to arrive at that binary decision, is subjective and relies upon the report of symptoms by an extremely competitive individual in a culture that values toughness. See where the problem may lie? Think a patient/player may lie in order to get past the protocol? It's not like it's hard to figure out what the "right" answers are to their questions.

Determining pass/fail takes a bit more interpretation than you seem to understand.

I'll trust the doctors to make the best decision that they can, with the information that they have.

No, your statement is naive. We have protocols that cannot be gamed. They aren't doing Freudian psychoanalysis on Tommy to see how he 'feels': they are putting him through cognitive tests that you cannot fake. If he passes them, he is good to play.

 

[In the Deed the Glory]

If Armstrong is cleared to play, Fyfe still starts and will play until Minnesota causes him to turn it over twice. Then Tommy comes in.

As I posted in your status update, there's no way you can do that as a coach. If TA can play he starts. If he can't start he doesn't play. Why? Because if he can't start it means he can't play. There's no gray area in concussions. Either you are cleared or you aren't.

I understand if he's cleared he can play.

But, if he is just skating past the line to play they may consider letting him sit unless actually needed to get the win. Why risk longer term injury against Minnesota if we don't have to? Maybe he's cleared, but he isn't playing well enough to start yet from some lingering effects. It's just not that black and white.

Actually, concussion protocol is pretty black and white. Either he's cleared to play or he's not.

The point being made is that even if he passes the protocol - there could be reason to still hold him out, unless they decide they need him for the win at some point during the game.

If he passes the protocol he starts. I see no reason to even contemplate sitting him "unless needed". What would that reason be?

If he has some lingering fatigue or vertigo/dizzyness. If he isn't cleared before he can practice at all, how do they know what his actual status is? Or say he gets cleared tomorrow, then during practice it's clear he isn't all there yet.

This just isn't how the concussion protocol works. He will not have any symptoms if he is cleared through the protocol. I don't know why people aren't listening or reading the link from Sam McKewon's tweet.

If he is cleared, he is good to go 100%. There is no other way to do it in concussion protocol. I don't know how much clearer the multiple posters in this thread can make this.

"If he is cleared, he is good to go 100%."

This statement is somewhat naive.

Yes, the protocol is binary, pass or fail. However, the symptomatic data used to arrive at that binary decision, is subjective and relies upon the report of symptoms by an extremely competitive individual in a culture that values toughness. See where the problem may lie? Think a patient/player may lie in order to get past the protocol? It's not like it's hard to figure out what the "right" answers are to their questions.

Determining pass/fail takes a bit more interpretation than you seem to understand.

I'll trust the doctors to make the best decision that they can, with the information that they have.

No, your statement is naive. We have protocols that cannot be gamed. They aren't doing Freudian psychoanalysis on Tommy to see how he 'feels': they are putting him through cognitive tests that you cannot fake. If he passes them, he is good to play.

100% correct. If I am naive, some are ignorant in regards to the process. There is no way to guess on the questions. It isn't like back in the day where you say who the president is. At the beginning of the season you take a baseline test that measures your cognitive ability, and you aren't cleared to even practice until you can match those results after a head injury. It is different every time you take it and it keys on memorization. It is not an easy test, in any way.

Third party physicians make the decision for clearance. It is completely out of the hands of coaches, and Universities and high schools across the nation are making sure this protocol is completely followed to a T to protect themselves from litigation.

 

[bugeater17]

If Armstrong is cleared to play, Fyfe still starts and will play until Minnesota causes him to turn it over twice. Then Tommy comes in.

As I posted in your status update, there's no way you can do that as a coach. If TA can play he starts. If he can't start he doesn't play. Why? Because if he can't start it means he can't play. There's no gray area in concussions. Either you are cleared or you aren't.

I understand if he's cleared he can play.

But, if he is just skating past the line to play they may consider letting him sit unless actually needed to get the win. Why risk longer term injury against Minnesota if we don't have to? Maybe he's cleared, but he isn't playing well enough to start yet from some lingering effects. It's just not that black and white.

Actually, concussion protocol is pretty black and white. Either he's cleared to play or he's not.

The point being made is that even if he passes the protocol - there could be reason to still hold him out, unless they decide they need him for the win at some point during the game.

If he passes the protocol he starts. I see no reason to even contemplate sitting him "unless needed". What would that reason be?

If he has some lingering fatigue or vertigo/dizzyness. If he isn't cleared before he can practice at all, how do they know what his actual status is? Or say he gets cleared tomorrow, then during practice it's clear he isn't all there yet.

This just isn't how the concussion protocol works. He will not have any symptoms if he is cleared through the protocol. I don't know why people aren't listening or reading the link from Sam McKewon's tweet.

If he is cleared, he is good to go 100%. There is no other way to do it in concussion protocol. I don't know how much clearer the multiple posters in this thread can make this.

"If he is cleared, he is good to go 100%."

This statement is somewhat naive.

Yes, the protocol is binary, pass or fail. However, the symptomatic data used to arrive at that binary decision, is subjective and relies upon the report of symptoms by an extremely competitive individual in a culture that values toughness. See where the problem may lie? Think a patient/player may lie in order to get past the protocol? It's not like it's hard to figure out what the "right" answers are to their questions.

Determining pass/fail takes a bit more interpretation than you seem to understand.

I'll trust the doctors to make the best decision that they can, with the information that they have.

No, your statement is naive. We have protocols that cannot be gamed. They aren't doing Freudian psychoanalysis on Tommy to see how he 'feels': they are putting him through cognitive tests that you cannot fake. If he passes them, he is good to play.

100% correct. If I am naive, some are ignorant in regards to the process. There is no way to guess on the questions. It isn't like back in the day where you say who the president is. At the beginning of the season you take a baseline test that measures your cognitive ability, and you aren't cleared to even practice until you can match those results after a head injury. It is different every time you take it and it keys on memorization. It is not an easy test, in any way.

Third party physicians make the decision for clearance. It is completely out of the hands of coaches, and Universities and high schools across the nation are making sure this protocol is completely followed to a T to protect themselves from litigation.

As bad as this sounds I had friends who intentionally missed questions and took longer (intentionally let time go by) on the puzzles/memory games during the baseline test to insure they could return in case of a head injury.

 

[Atbone95]

Bugeater - Definitely a possibility. But still hard to game - your brain just acts differently when affected that way. But I had buddies do it too.

ITDTG - Correct. I would assume it has become standard protocol to start giving these tests in high school as well, and use them to diagnose concussions. You take a test before conditioning even starts in ~ July. You go through 4-5 different types of steps: one test flashes a new word every second for 10-15 seconds, and then at the end you answer true/false whether it was included, another test shows you different shapes every second for 10-15 seconds and at the end you say whether or not it was included, etc.

It measures both correctness and the speed at which you are able to come to an answer. It is hard with a brain correctly. When concussed, the brain simply can't do it (from experience).

1. Staring at a screen will hurt
2. Seeing images flash is intentionally meant to see if you can withstand that kind of stimuli
3. Short term memory will be impacted, nearly guaranteeing you'll forget words/shapes

If you're not healthy, you're not passing that test.

Now, I'm not sure if Tommy has already passed this test - I would assume he has, considering he has returned to even light practice yesterday. They won't even let you run until you pass it.

Today, the key word is symptomatic - the cognitive tests have already shown doctors that in an empirical, concrete way, Tommy's head has returned to normal. If Tommy can go back to running around and not feel light-headed, not have a headache, not feel disoriented, not forget the play he's running, he's good to go.

 

[husker98]

Bugeater - Definitely a possibility. But still hard to game - your brain just acts differently when affected that way. But I had buddies do it too.

ITDTG - Correct. I would assume it has become standard protocol to start giving these tests in high school as well, and use them to diagnose concussions. You take a test before conditioning even starts in ~ July. You go through 4-5 different types of steps: one test flashes a new word every second for 10-15 seconds, and then at the end you answer true/false whether it was included, another test shows you different shapes every second for 10-15 seconds and at the end you say whether or not it was included, etc.

It measures both correctness and the speed at which you are able to come to an answer. It is hard with a brain correctly. When concussed, the brain simply can't do it (from experience).

1. Staring at a screen will hurt
2. Seeing images flash is intentionally meant to see if you can withstand that kind of stimuli
3. Short term memory will be impacted, nearly guaranteeing you'll forget words/shapes

If you're not healthy, you're not passing that test.

Now, I'm not sure if Tommy has already passed this test - I would assume he has, considering he has returned to even light practice yesterday. They won't even let you run until you pass it.

Today, the key word is symptomatic - the cognitive tests have already shown doctors that in an empirical, concrete way, Tommy's head has returned to normal. If Tommy can go back to running around and not feel light-headed, not have a headache, not feel disoriented, not forget the play he's running, he's good to go.

So you're saying this isn't how it happens?

 

[Hayseed]

From the comments I've heard, Armstrong is an extreme possibility to start.

 

[lo country]

Any word? Is Riley keeping it quiet until game time?

 

[In the Deed the Glory]

If Armstrong is cleared to play, Fyfe still starts and will play until Minnesota causes him to turn it over twice. Then Tommy comes in.

As I posted in your status update, there's no way you can do that as a coach. If TA can play he starts. If he can't start he doesn't play. Why? Because if he can't start it means he can't play. There's no gray area in concussions. Either you are cleared or you aren't.

I understand if he's cleared he can play.

But, if he is just skating past the line to play they may consider letting him sit unless actually needed to get the win. Why risk longer term injury against Minnesota if we don't have to? Maybe he's cleared, but he isn't playing well enough to start yet from some lingering effects. It's just not that black and white.

Actually, concussion protocol is pretty black and white. Either he's cleared to play or he's not.

The point being made is that even if he passes the protocol - there could be reason to still hold him out, unless they decide they need him for the win at some point during the game.

If he passes the protocol he starts. I see no reason to even contemplate sitting him "unless needed". What would that reason be?

If he has some lingering fatigue or vertigo/dizzyness. If he isn't cleared before he can practice at all, how do they know what his actual status is? Or say he gets cleared tomorrow, then during practice it's clear he isn't all there yet.

This just isn't how the concussion protocol works. He will not have any symptoms if he is cleared through the protocol. I don't know why people aren't listening or reading the link from Sam McKewon's tweet.

If he is cleared, he is good to go 100%. There is no other way to do it in concussion protocol. I don't know how much clearer the multiple posters in this thread can make this.

"If he is cleared, he is good to go 100%."

This statement is somewhat naive.

Yes, the protocol is binary, pass or fail. However, the symptomatic data used to arrive at that binary decision, is subjective and relies upon the report of symptoms by an extremely competitive individual in a culture that values toughness. See where the problem may lie? Think a patient/player may lie in order to get past the protocol? It's not like it's hard to figure out what the "right" answers are to their questions.

Determining pass/fail takes a bit more interpretation than you seem to understand.

I'll trust the doctors to make the best decision that they can, with the information that they have.

No, your statement is naive. We have protocols that cannot be gamed. They aren't doing Freudian psychoanalysis on Tommy to see how he 'feels': they are putting him through cognitive tests that you cannot fake. If he passes them, he is good to play.

100% correct. If I am naive, some are ignorant in regards to the process. There is no way to guess on the questions. It isn't like back in the day where you say who the president is. At the beginning of the season you take a baseline test that measures your cognitive ability, and you aren't cleared to even practice until you can match those results after a head injury. It is different every time you take it and it keys on memorization. It is not an easy test, in any way.

Third party physicians make the decision for clearance. It is completely out of the hands of coaches, and Universities and high schools across the nation are making sure this protocol is completely followed to a T to protect themselves from litigation.

As bad as this sounds I had friends who intentionally missed questions and took longer (intentionally let time go by) on the puzzles/memory games during the baseline test to insure they could return in case of a head injury.

Ya, that's not how it works. They may have done that, but it didn't actually help them.

 

[In the Deed the Glory]

Bugeater - Definitely a possibility. But still hard to game - your brain just acts differently when affected that way. But I had buddies do it too.

ITDTG - Correct. I would assume it has become standard protocol to start giving these tests in high school as well, and use them to diagnose concussions. You take a test before conditioning even starts in ~ July. You go through 4-5 different types of steps: one test flashes a new word every second for 10-15 seconds, and then at the end you answer true/false whether it was included, another test shows you different shapes every second for 10-15 seconds and at the end you say whether or not it was included, etc.

It measures both correctness and the speed at which you are able to come to an answer. It is hard with a brain correctly. When concussed, the brain simply can't do it (from experience).

1. Staring at a screen will hurt
2. Seeing images flash is intentionally meant to see if you can withstand that kind of stimuli
3. Short term memory will be impacted, nearly guaranteeing you'll forget words/shapes

If you're not healthy, you're not passing that test.

Now, I'm not sure if Tommy has already passed this test - I would assume he has, considering he has returned to even light practice yesterday. They won't even let you run until you pass it.

Today, the key word is symptomatic - the cognitive tests have already shown doctors that in an empirical, concrete way, Tommy's head has returned to normal. If Tommy can go back to running around and not feel light-headed, not have a headache, not feel disoriented, not forget the play he's running, he's good to go.

To the bolded, yes. This definitely has become REQUIRED at the Class A level. I deal with the entire system all the time and I know exactly what Riley is going through right now. It is a relief that the decisions on being cleared are not on your head, they are on medical people.

And it is hard, I have had multiple athletes have to re-take the baseline test because they did so poorly. You can't game that test, it just isn't possible.

 

[307husker]

If Tommy can go back to running around and not feel light-headed, not have a headache, not feel disoriented, not forget the play he's running, he's good to go.

And how do they determine if he's symptomatic? Um, they ask him... There is an objective component and a subjective component to the process. I'm certain that they've done the best they can to design a process that eliminates subjectivity but it's not possible to eliminate it completely. Dx in brain situations is nuanced, not black and white.

 

[Mavric]

Starting

 

[Jonathan Paul]

give me a break.