Riley and the Direction of the Program

[Nebfanatic]

But, I take your point, Brady benefits from excellent play calling/ design @ NE. But that mofo MAKES those throws, any throws like about nobody has ever made those throws and if he doesn't, the playbook ain't for sh#t. He's an f'ng surgeon, an assassin, that guy.

Would Tom Brady be any worse as a quarterback if New England ran the ball 70% of the time?

he would definitely be worse. It would obviously cut into his numbers but more so takes away a lot of in game throws that gave Brady experience and have helped him get to where he is today

That's not what I'm asking. If, in 2016, the Patriots ran the ball 70% of the time just for the heck of it, does that magically make Tom Brady a worse quarterback? As in, does his skill set decrease? As in, is what he is capable of as an athlete determined by the OC's playcalls or by his statistics?

I was taking it and projecting that over his entire career haha. But I would agree yes at this point he would be the same player with the same skill set regardless if his usage rate.

 

[The Big Nebrowski]

Beck was absolute garbage at QB development. It became clear when we had to outsource TMart's development to Calhoun, and at that point I was OK with dumping Beck because he was never going to get us over the hump.

I'm sure Beck must've been just "thrilled" to be tasked with making good ol' Taylor Martinez into a passer. That's like asking a sculptor to make a fine statue out of a lump of mud.

He had other QBs who never developed too....like all of them

Well, as it turned out, if I'm not mistaken, TM and TA DID go on to set some ttl yds records, but no one was ever going to make either into a pure pocket, pro style passer.
Beck also had the pleasure of trying to make Cody Green into a passer, OMG, what did the poor guy do to deserve that?

No, fact is, NE hasn't had a legit pro style pocket passer since going back to the Ferragamo/Humm days, when Oz was experimenting w that stuff--I suppose you could throw Gdowski into that mix. T Gill was a respectable passer as well.

Well, most dual threat QBs don't make the best passers in the world.

But, I get it, WE fired Beck, so he must be sh#t.

Beck recruited QBs here didnt he?

I do not know the answer to that Q. Would stand to reason that he did and they were going for dual threat guys, which, Green, JT, and TA were all top 10 dual QB recruits. Well, again, dual guys are usually "project players" when it comes to passing, they're usually rushers 1st.

 

[The Big Nebrowski]

Closer but still wrong

Evidently you have a bromance w JT. I don't. If I wanna watch a great passing college QB, I'd rather watch Rosen, or Browning, or the guy @ PSU or USC etc.

 

[Landlord]

I recognize his ability to a more accurate degree, is all.

 

[The Big Nebrowski]

I recognize his ability to a more accurate degree, is all.

I'm not saying he's bad, but some of the times I've watched, especially vs good Ds, it was like, meh, wtev. The guy is near impossible to tackle though, his thighs are like fire hydrants.

 

[The Big Nebrowski]

But, I take your point, Brady benefits from excellent play calling/ design @ NE. But that mofo MAKES those throws, any throws like about nobody has ever made those throws and if he doesn't, the playbook ain't for sh#t. He's an f'ng surgeon, an assassin, that guy.

Would Tom Brady be any worse as a quarterback if New England ran the ball 70% of the time?

Probably not, but you don't have the best QB in NFL history in your lineup and then just let him handoff the ball.
But Belichick's O genius is predicated on his ability to exploit the Ds main weakness at every point in a game. Most of the time that involves passing, in part, cuz Brady, but if you have a weakness against the run, he'll exploit that for 10 plays in a row til ya stop it, he doesn't giva a sh#t. I've scene the Pats pass the ball all 1 half, the run it all the other half, just crushing wtever the D adjusts to. But usually, cuz Brady, they mostly pass it, cuz you don't let that kind of weapon go to waste.

Brady has built most of his success over the years throwing to Welker and now Edelman, 2 short lil "nobody" guys. Wrap your brain around that one if you can.

 

[Danny Bateman]

Well, yeah, they do. But after watching Martinez heave back and shot-put deep balls until he started getting tutelage from Calhoun, I have to question what Beck was actually teaching the kid during his first two years and why he didn't help improve Martinez's consistency as a passer?

We can get in the bushes having a conversation about whether OC's should try to tweak QBs mechanics or leave them alone, because that's a legit question.

TA remained very raw as a passer and never developed very much here under Beck either.

I'm just not big on Beck's abilities as a QB developer. FWIW you mentioned about the one guy that bucks the trend, and Reesing had only a one year data point under Beck.

Taylor's first year Watson was the OC, and although he looked goofy, he could sling the ball around surprisingly well when he was healthy (watch game tape of Oklahoma State if you haven't in a while). Beck's first year Taylor hadn't entirely recovered from his ankle, and then played with turf toe the majority of the season. The reason Taylor threw like that and regressed was pain avoidance. I'm not a coach, but I don't know what exactly he was supposed to try and do in that situation. Then he got a whole lot better his Junior year, and then even better still his senior year (67% completions, 9 to 1 TD/INT ratio in 3 games) before he got hurt again.

We've got to give Beck a pass on TMart's ankle. The kid was never quite the same as he was as a frosh after that injury, despite some amazing runs like that Wiscy one, and who's to say how much that affected his development.

We did have a pretty good offense in those years. Never put it together enough to get over the bump. That 2010 title game still hurts to think about.

I guess I reached a point where I surmised that without Bo being able to iron out the wrinkles on defense, we were going to need a fantastically efficient offense in order to carry the load. Beck never provided that. In my mind, it's easier to do with a QB that can make any throw you want than a dual threat guy - but players like Braxton Miller or Shaun Watson prove it's not necessary.

The point, for me, was that Beck never fielded a dual threat QB capable of elevating their offense like that or a great passer on offense. Hence, our offense could never completely pick up the slack for our defense. Hence, I was OK ditching him.

 

[In the Deed the Glory]

So now Bill Belichek is an offensive genius? I'm surprised considering his history as a Defensive Coordinator.

 

[The Big Nebrowski]

Well, yeah, they do. But after watching Martinez heave back and shot-put deep balls until he started getting tutelage from Calhoun, I have to question what Beck was actually teaching the kid during his first two years and why he didn't help improve Martinez's consistency as a passer?

We can get in the bushes having a conversation about whether OC's should try to tweak QBs mechanics or leave them alone, because that's a legit question.

TA remained very raw as a passer and never developed very much here under Beck either.

I'm just not big on Beck's abilities as a QB developer. FWIW you mentioned about the one guy that bucks the trend, and Reesing had only a one year data point under Beck.

Taylor's first year Watson was the OC, and although he looked goofy, he could sling the ball around surprisingly well when he was healthy (watch game tape of Oklahoma State if you haven't in a while). Beck's first year Taylor hadn't entirely recovered from his ankle, and then played with turf toe the majority of the season. The reason Taylor threw like that and regressed was pain avoidance. I'm not a coach, but I don't know what exactly he was supposed to try and do in that situation. Then he got a whole lot better his Junior year, and then even better still his senior year (67% completions, 9 to 1 TD/INT ratio in 3 games) before he got hurt again.

We've got to give Beck a pass on TMart's ankle. The kid was never quite the same as he was as a frosh after that injury, despite some amazing runs like that Wiscy one, and who's to say how much that affected his development.

We did have a pretty good offense in those years. Never put it together enough to get over the bump. That 2010 title game still hurts to think about.

I guess I reached a point where I surmised that without Bo being able to iron out the wrinkles on defense, we were going to need a fantastically efficient offense in order to carry the load. Beck never provided that. In my mind, it's easier to do with a QB that can make any throw you want than a dual threat guy - but players like Braxton Miller or Shaun Watson prove it's not necessary.

The point, for me, was that Beck never fielded a dual threat QB capable of elevating their offense like that or a great passer on offense. Hence, our offense could never completely pick up the slack for our defense. Hence, I was OK ditching him.

Well, it's clear to me anyway, that the lion's share of the suckage during the Bo Regime rested squarely on the D. It wasn't the offense that wasn't showing up and getting blown off the field in the most important games. It was the defense. Beck and crew generally did continue to score points in those games, though usually put in severe catchup mode. If OU or Wiscy or whoever has put up 35 or 42 on your D by have(or the 1st qtr), wtf's an OC supposed to do?

 

[desertshox]

blah blah blah

bob loblaw

blah blah blah

Well, it's clear to me anyway, that the lion's share of the suckage during the Bo Regime rested squarely on the D. It wasn't the offense that wasn't showing up and getting blown off the field in the most important games. It was the defense. Beck and crew generally did continue to score points in those games, though usually put in severe catchup mode. If OU or Wiscy or whoever has put up 35 or 42 on your D by have(or the 1st qtr), wtf's an OC supposed to do?

well, the offense didnt do them any favors in the turnover department either.

 

[The Big Nebrowski]

So now Bill Belichek is an offensive genius? I'm surprised considering his history as a Defensive Coordinator.

I know, it's crazy, right?
Here's how it prlly goes down: Beli, the D guy, breaks down the other team's D, finding tendencies and weaknesses, perhaps w an assist from analytics. THEN, he forms a "pow wow" with the OC and Brady and discusses the best way to attack the other team's D, which, low and behold, involves his input as to potential play selection. Weird, right? THEN, in the game he is in the loop when Brady and crew are on the field and if he sees something the defense is doing he QUICK, makes his thoughts known as to what play(s) may work there and then--he may even take executive action and call the dadgum play hisself. And dadgummit if he ain't real good at that. I know, right? ERGO, vicariously, Beli could be considered and prlly IS an "offensive genius".

It's kinda like when an ex QB is coaching safeties or something. Football's weird like that.

Hope that clears things up.

(p.s. Beli + chick = Belichick)

 

[Saunders]

Why the hell are y'all taking about Tim beck in this thread?

 

[In the Deed the Glory]

So now Bill Belichek is an offensive genius? I'm surprised considering his history as a Defensive Coordinator.

I know, it's crazy, right?
Here's how it prlly goes down: Beli, the D guy, breaks down the other team's D, finding tendencies and weaknesses, perhaps w an assist from analytics. THEN, he forms a "pow wow" with the OC and Brady and discusses the best way to attack the other team's D, which, low and behold, involves his input as to potential play selection. Weird, right? THEN, in the game he is in the loop when Brady and crew are on the field and if he sees something the defense is doing he QUICK, makes his thoughts known as to what play(s) may work there and then--he may even take executive action and call the dadgum play hisself. And dadgummit if he ain't real good at that. I know, right? ERGO, vicariously, Beli could be considered and prlly IS an "offensive genius".

It's kinda like when an ex QB is coaching safeties or something. Football's weird like that.

Hope that clears things up.

(p.s. Beli + chick = Belichick)

Do you make everything up as you go, or is some of it pre-determined?

 

[Redux]

What we need is some Louisiana speed at the QB position. If only our coaches from the past regime would have recruited one!

 

[Hedley Lamarr]

What we need is some Louisiana speed at the QB position. If only our coaches from the past regime would have recruited one!

Could not agree more