The Environment

dudeguyy said:
TGHusker said:
knapplc said:
Whenever Trump does something, ask yourself, "How will this benefit Russia?"

Everything he does becomes more understandable when you frame it that way.
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So Knapp (or anyone else) take us down the 2 divergent paths with your view on how this would play out in Russia's favor: (1) If Trump approves the accord - how does that benefit Russia - who hasn't signed it?

(2) If Trump pulls out - how does that benefit Russia?

My quick takes: (1) Gives Russia a competitive edge short term on old energy tech - fossil fuels. As we cut back, Russia exploits the pull back and gains more market share for the one economic sector their country has to compete in.

(2) If we pull out, we (a) join Russia in a energy partnership, (b) give credibility to their refusal to sign the accord or © maybe the European nations see the cause as hopeless (carbon reduction) and begin to buy more an more of their fossil fuels from Russia.
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The vast majority of the civilized world sees Trump as a joke. He's literally a punchline to most of them.
Russia would win simply by the merits of this sowing further discord between the Europe and the West, who have stood together against Russia since the Cold War. They don't actually need to check other boxes; sometimes chaos and strife is their endgame.

I view this decision like I view this any of his moves from his business career. It's essentially another bankrupted casino or Trump University. He makes poor decisions because he's impulsive, short-sighted and thinks he knows what he doesn't know.

He hasn't thought out his agenda at all. At this point, the plan is to just stick it to Obama or anyone else who challenged his greatness. I see this as a problem for the broader GOP as well.
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Good take on it. as well as the other post below it.

 
"Donald Trump has made a historic mistake, which our grandchildren will look back on with stunned dismay at how a world leader could be so divorced from reality and morality." - Sierra Club executive director Michael Brune

 
The company you keep:

Nations signing the Paris Agreement:

Afghanistan, Albania, Algeria, Andorra, Antigua and Barbuda, Argentina, Armenia, Australia, Austria, Azerbaijan, Bahamas, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Barbados, Belarus, Belgium, Belize, Benin, Bolivia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Botswana, Brazil, Brunei Darussalam, Bulgaria, Burkina Faso, Cambodia, Cameroon, Canada, Central African Republic, Chad, Chile, China, Comoros, Congo, Cook Islands, Costa Rica, Cote d’Ivoire, Cuba, Cyprus, Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, Denmark, Djibouti, Dominica, El Salvador, Estonia, Ethiopia, European Union, Fiji, Finland, France, Gabon, Gambia, Germany, Ghana, Greece, Grenada, Guatemala, Guinea, Guyana, Honduras, Hungary, Iceland, India, Indonesia, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Jamaica, Japan, Jordan, Kazakhstan, Kenya, Kiribati, Lao People’s Democratic Republic, Latvia, Lesotho, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Madagascar, Malaysia, Maldives, Mali, Malta, Marshall Islands, Mauritania, Mauritius, Mexico, Micronesia, Monaco, Mongolia, Morocco, Namibia, Nauru, Nepal, New Zealand, Niger, Niue, Norway, Pakistan, Palau, Palestine, Panama, Papua New Guinea, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Portugal, Republic of Korea, Rwanda, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Samoa, Sao Tome and Principe, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, Seychelles, Sierra Leone, Singapore, Slovakia, Slovenia, Solomon Islands, Somalia, South Africa, Spain, Sri Lanka, Swaziland, Sweden, Tajikistan, Thailand, Tonga, Tunisia, Turkmenistan, Tuvalu, Uganda, Ukraine, United Arab Emirates, United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Uruguay, Vanuatu, Viet Nam, Zambia, Angola, Bhutan, Burundi, Cabo Verde, Colombia, Croatia, Czechia, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Egypt, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Georgia, Guinea-Bissau, Haiti, Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Kyrgyzstan, Lebanon, Liberia, Libya, Liechtenstein, Malawi, Montenegro, Mozambique, Myanmar, Netherlands, Nigeria, Oman, Qatar, Republic of Moldova, Romania, Russian Federation, San Marino, Serbia, South Sudan, Sudan, Suriname, Switzerland, The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Timor-Leste, Togo, Trinidad and Tobago, Turkey, United Republic of Tanzania, Uzbekistan, Venezuela, Yemen, Zimbabwe

Nations opposed to the agreement:

Nicaragua, Syria, the United States

 
Republican dream come true.

Trump, if anything, isn't all *that* committed to this standard fare GOP action item. With all the pressure that has been put on him over this, can he really do it? How important is it to satisfy the Paul Ryan gang?

 
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https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2017/6/1/15725510/trump-pulls-us-out-of-paris-climate-deal

The United States will be withdrawing from the Paris Climate Agreement, President Donald Trump announced Thursday from the White House Rose Garden.

“In order to fulfill my solemn duty to protect America and its citizens, the United States will withdraw from the Paris climate accord,” the president said.

He added that he hoped to “begin negotiations to re-enter either the Paris accord or really entirely new transition on terms that are fair to the United States.”

The withdrawal process takes four years (so, we’d withdraw around the time of the 2020 election).
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What frustrates me about this is how many people want to just let Trump own this. The guy is an ignoramus. He's not the problem driver. Republicans, you and your politicians have been spewing this anti-science bullsh#t for years. Withdrawing from Paris is a major win for you. *You* don't get to criticize Trump on this, then turn around and wax poetic about Orrin Hatch or Paul Ryan or whoever else has been fighting for sh#t like this their entire political lives. You retain zero credibility if you do so.

Republicans want this. You have to own it.

 
Yep, zoogs. It's not Trump per se, it's Republicans and the rank ignorance they cultivate in their voters. To wit:


 
That's not just him brown-nosing for the President, either. Here's Paul Ryan in October 2016; it's almost verbatim:

“The Paris climate deal would be disastrous for the American economy. It carelessly throws away the great gains that the United States has made over the past decade in energy development. The abundant, low-cost energy that we have unlocked will now be shut in the ground, eliminating the economic growth and jobs that come with development. The result will be higher energy costs for Americans—which will be especially painful for the poorest among us. Furthermore, President Obama has once again acted unlawfully by signing an international treaty without Senate ratification, as required by the Constitution.”
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http://www.speaker.gov/press-release/statement-paris-climate-agreement

The ranks of Republican politicians willing to put their name to this has perhaps thinned of late. But this is exactly the kind of thing they've been fighting for. Without their enormous interest in driving such initiatives, Trump doesn't do this. This is Trump being a model Republican. This is why those spineless Congressmen are happy to put up with his foibles. For these results.

 
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zoogs said:
The names of Republicans willing to put their name to this has perhaps thinned of late. But this is exactly the kind of thing they've been fighting for. Without their enormous interest in driving such initiatives, Trump doesn't do this. This is Trump being a model Republican. This is why those spineless Congressmen are happy to put up with his foibles. For these results.
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But if you couch it in "RAH! RAH! America!" the red state voters will agree without thinking.

 
schriznoeder said:
"Donald Trump has made a historic mistake, which our grandchildren will look back on with stunned dismay at how a world leader could be so divorced from reality and morality." - Sierra Club executive director Michael Brune
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Our grandchildren will probably just murder us all. I'm not joking either; if it came down to a choice between huge the cost of dealing with climate change, and the huge cost of caring for old people (that failed to do anything about climate change), I think future generations would be right to choose the former over the later.

 
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And here's Mitch McConnell chiming in.


Republicans, especially Republican voters, this is on you.


 
I hope the conservatives/Republicans on this board don't shy away from this conversation just because supporting Trump has become such an unpopular thing to do.

You're out there celebrating -- at least, you should be. Congrats to you. Your perspectives on Paris are extremely underrepresented on this board. Feel free to opine and offer up your side of things.

 
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Here is my problem with all of this. I am all for growing jobs and I believe that if you grow industry and jobs, many of our problems become much easier to solve. Also, if you look back at whatever thread we discussed the Paris agreement, I wasn't for it because it put more restrictions on us than countries our industries are competing with like China and Indonesia.

However, I also believe we need to be a leader in environmental protection and development. As has been pointed out, that's an entire realm of industry that is actually HELPED by the agreement.

So, something had to be done. We couldn't have all this free trade of goods flowing into our country competing with our industry from countries that don't have anywhere close to our regulations and at the same time, putting more and more regulations on our industry while agreeing that other countries can keep polluting more and more.

So, now we are out of the Paris agreement and we supposedly are going to renegotiate our trade deals. My problem is, I just don't trust the walking Cheeto and the Republican party to be able to renegotiate these things so that our industry thrives AND it protects the environment.

 
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