So let's say Riley stays ...

After Leach's 3rd season at WSU boosters were threatening to pull their support if he was retained.  Fans threatened to cancel season tickets and not come back.  I know the story well, my cousin's a Coug and he cried about how bad their coaching was that whole year.  They couldn't see any signs of good coaching, their line was terrible, the D was terrible, the losses kept piling up, Leach had to go and was clearly "not the right man for the job".

Leach went 3-9 that year.  Moos made a highly unpopular decision and kept Leach because he knew there was a lot more to the story than what the fans see.

The Cougs won 9 games the following year and Moos came out looking like a genius. 

 
LaunchCode said:
After Leach's 3rd season at WSU boosters were threatening to pull their support if he was retained.  Fans threatened to cancel season tickets and not come back.  I know the story well, my cousin's a Coug and he cried about how bad their coaching was that whole year.  They couldn't see any signs of good coaching, their line was terrible, the D was terrible, the losses kept piling up, Leach had to go and was clearly "not the right man for the job".

Leach went 3-9 that year.  Moos made a highly unpopular decision and kept Leach because he knew there was a lot more to the story than what the fans see.

The Cougs won 9 games the following year and Moos came out looking like a genius. 
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This isn't one of those times.  Leach at least had a history of performing at elite levels... and not a Gray Cup 20 years ago.  Also WSU's fans limits are not Nebraska's fans limits.  WSU has never been an elite team (at least as long as I've been alive)... not the same here.

 
neepster said:
This isn't one of those times.  Leach at least had a history of performing at elite levels... and not a Gray Cup 20 years ago.  Also WSU's fans limits are not Nebraska's fans limits.  WSU has never been an elite team (at least as long as I've been alive)... not the same here.
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This is his 6th season at WSU with no titles and Leach coached at TT for 10 years without winning a conference title.  What's your basis for saying he performed at elite levels?

I think he's a very good coach and titles are a lazy way of judging coaches.  Talent and timing has a lot more to do with winning titles than coaching, Gene Chizik proved that point.   

 
LaunchCode said:
This is his 6th season at WSU with no titles and Leach coached at TT for 10 years without winning a conference title.  What's your basis for saying he performed at elite levels?

I think he's a very good coach and titles are a lazy way of judging coaches.  Talent and timing has a lot more to do with winning titles than coaching, Gene Chizik proved that point.   
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Well, Leach had a 66% win percentage at Texas Tech (who was godawful for years before he got there).  He also had them playing for and in the hunt for conference championships every year or almost every year.  No one can say the same about Riley.

Maybe claiming Leach is 'elite' is a bit over top, although his win % at TT would be enough to put him in the top 30 coaches in the country today (his rather pedestrian 37–36 at WSU to date is dragging him down now, but over the last 3 years he is 69% @WSU, which is head and tails above Riley  @UN the last 3 years.

Bottomline is Leach has a history of sustained good performance and Riley does not.  Riley has seasons that were excursions where they won more games than usual but they always reverted to mean slightly above .500.

 
LaunchCode said:
This is his 6th season at WSU with no titles and Leach coached at TT for 10 years without winning a conference title.  What's your basis for saying he performed at elite levels?

I think he's a very good coach and titles are a lazy way of judging coaches.  Talent and timing has a lot more to do with winning titles than coaching, Gene Chizik proved that point.   
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I agree with your take on Leach, but since he left Texas Tech, they haven't won jack squat, so the guy can coach pretty darn good.  I don't think he will ever progress beyond a TT or WSU type of power 5 team.  I would love to see him at a next tier Power 5 school and see what he could do with some better talent.  UCLA type.  I believe they would be one step above WAZU.

 
LaunchCode said:
After Leach's 3rd season at WSU boosters were threatening to pull their support if he was retained.  Fans threatened to cancel season tickets and not come back.  I know the story well, my cousin's a Coug and he cried about how bad their coaching was that whole year.  They couldn't see any signs of good coaching, their line was terrible, the D was terrible, the losses kept piling up, Leach had to go and was clearly "not the right man for the job".

Leach went 3-9 that year.  Moos made a highly unpopular decision and kept Leach because he knew there was a lot more to the story than what the fans see.

The Cougs won 9 games the following year and Moos came out looking like a genius. 
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First - Are expectations at Washington State the same as they are at Nebraska?

Second - People like to throw out an outlier here and there as if it means something in the grand scheme.  For each one example there are dozens of counter-examples where it didn't work out.

Third - Leach's nine wins in his first two years were as many wins as they had in the four years before he got there.  So I'm somewhat skeptical that there were as many people ready for him to go as you'd like to indicate.

Fourth - Even though thery were only 3-9, they were a Top 10 passing team in the country.  It also took a Heisman effort from Marcus Mariotta to keep Wsu from beating then-#2 Oregon.  So there were other signs of hope even if the record didn't show it.

 
LaunchCode said:
After Leach's 3rd season at WSU boosters were threatening to pull their support if he was retained.  Fans threatened to cancel season tickets and not come back.  I know the story well, my cousin's a Coug and he cried about how bad their coaching was that whole year.  They couldn't see any signs of good coaching, their line was terrible, the D was terrible, the losses kept piling up, Leach had to go and was clearly "not the right man for the job".

Leach went 3-9 that year.  Moos made a highly unpopular decision and kept Leach because he knew there was a lot more to the story than what the fans see.

The Cougs won 9 games the following year and Moos came out looking like a genius. 
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I'm calling BS. In Leach's first 2 years there, he had the same number of wins as the last coach who had a 4 year stint (9 wins). Wazzou hadn't had a winning season since 2003 and he took them to a bowl game in his second season. Wazzou had only been to 10 bowl games in it's entire history as a program before Leach took over.

 
DrunkOffPunch said:
I'm calling BS. In Leach's first 2 years there, he had the same number of wins as the last coach who had a 4 year stint (9 wins). Wazzou hadn't had a winning season since 2003 and he took them to a bowl game in his second season. Wazzou had only been to 10 bowl games in it's entire history as a program before Leach took over.
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Think what you want, but believe it or not Nebraska doesn't have a monopoly on fans who think their teams should be far greater than they are at the minute.  Leach generally rubbed a lot of people the wrong way the first few years with his antics and when the losses were piling up in his third year he had plenty of detractors.   You don't lose 9 games anywhere you are paying a coach more than you've ever paid a coach and not have a lot of people up in arms.  

I personally find his act entertaining, but I can understand why some who take things way to seriously would take offense. 

 
Mavric said:
First - Are expectations at Washington State the same as they are at Nebraska?

Second - People like to throw out an outlier here and there as if it means something in the grand scheme.  For each one example there are dozens of counter-examples where it didn't work out.

Third - Leach's nine wins in his first two years were as many wins as they had in the four years before he got there.  So I'm somewhat skeptical that there were as many people ready for him to go as you'd like to indicate.

Fourth - Even though thery were only 3-9, they were a Top 10 passing team in the country.  It also took a Heisman effort from Marcus Mariotta to keep Wsu from beating then-#2 Oregon.  So there were other signs of hope even if the record didn't show it.
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1.  Expectations and a dollar will get you a candy bar at the dollar store.

2.  9 losses is an outlier?  If you're referring to coaches who had trying 3rd seasons and then went onto have a lot of success in the years to come, Leach is hardly the single example or even a rare example.  Installing an entirely new system and fitting players to that system is not a two, or three year job to completion.  Canning a coach right before the fruits of that labor are about to pay off is like brewing a batch of beer and then pouring it out the day before it's ready to drink. 

3.  In year three there absolutely were many detractors and it actually started at the end of year two.  Their bowl loss to Colorado State and his mismanagement of the final minutes of that game which cost them a game they should have won lost any good will he'd built up to that point with many fans.  Ending a season with a bowl loss is deflating even more so when the game is all but locked up and the coach decides to keep passing the ball instead of running the clock down.  Leach took a big hit with fans and local media alike for that game and then followed it up with 9 losses the next season.  There's no reason to be skeptical, you could go ahead and ask Coug fans.

4. Your number four amazes me, because it's you looking at a program you're not attached to emotionally and taking a big picture view.    Be honest, is that something you do with the Nebraska program?  Well plenty of Coug fans certainly couldn't do it with their program at the time.  Instead they lived in the minute and were breaking down individual plays during that season and pointing out every single flaw, the lack of improvement, players put in the wrong positions, the wrong players on the sidelines, the terrible coaching, etc....  Wash rinse repeat it happens withe every fan base not just ones who feel entitled to "bigger" expectations. 

 
LaunchCode said:
1.  Expectations and a dollar will get you a candy bar at the dollar store.

2.  9 losses is an outlier?  If you're referring to coaches who had trying 3rd seasons and then went onto have a lot of success in the years to come, Leach is hardly the single example or even a rare example.  Installing an entirely new system and fitting players to that system is not a two, or three year job to completion.  Canning a coach right before the fruits of that labor are about to pay off is like brewing a batch of beer and then pouring it out the day before it's ready to drink. 

3.  In year three there absolutely were many detractors and it actually started at the end of year two.  Their bowl loss to Colorado State and his mismanagement of the final minutes of that game which cost them a game they should have won lost any good will he'd built up to that point with many fans.  Ending a season with a bowl loss is deflating even more so when the game is all but locked up and the coach decides to keep passing the ball instead of running the clock down.  Leach took a big hit with fans and local media alike for that game and then followed it up with 9 losses the next season.  There's no reason to be skeptical, you could go ahead and ask Coug fans.

4. Your number four amazes me, because it's you looking at a program you're not attached to emotionally and taking a big picture view.    Be honest, is that something you do with the Nebraska program?  Well plenty of Coug fans certainly couldn't do it with their program at the time.  Instead they lived in the minute and were breaking down individual plays during that season and pointing out every single flaw, the lack of improvement, players put in the wrong positions, the wrong players on the sidelines, the terrible coaching, etc....  Wash rinse repeat it happens withe every fan base not just ones who feel entitled to "bigger" expectations. 
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1. It's not about what expectations get the fans, it's about what meeting them or not meeting them gets the coach. Meeting expectations: more time, raises, prestige, etc. Not meeting expectations: scrutiny, hot seat talks, possibly fired. That's what is meant here by expectations

2. Outlier meaning trying to find some rare situation somewhere out there and presenting it as some equivalent situation as evidence that Moos might or should retain Riley, because Mike Leach went 3-9 his 3rd year at Washington State, which is not at all the same thing as RIley being 4-5 in year 3 at Nebraska because...

3. Washington State went 9-40 under their previous head coach in 4 years, 30-28 under their coach prior to that in his 5 years there, with his only winning season occuring in his first year which was 2003.  Compare this to Nebraska who went 67-27 in 7 years under their previous head coach (no defense of Bo, mind you), which leads to

4. The fact that Leach had a history of making teams consistent winners and competing for conference titles, where Riley has not, and in spite of his bad year there, still had the Cougars performing at a level in year 3 that was at least on-par to where they had before.

I see one that trended up, and one that is very clearly trending down with no logical indication at all it will reverse course.  

 
People seemed to forget Riley didn't take over a dumpster fire.  He took over a team that had won 9 or more games in 7 straight seasons.


2008


Bo Pelini9

Big 12


North


T–1st10

9


4


Won Gator Bowl (Clemson) 26–21


—


—


—


2009


Big 12


North


1st


10


4


Won Holiday Bowl (Arizona) 33–0


14


14


22


2010


Big 12


North


T–1st11

10


4


Lost Holiday Bowl (Washington) 7–19


20


19


18


2011


Big Ten


Legends


3rd


9


4


Lost Capital One Bowl (South Carolina) 13–30


24


24


20


2012


Big Ten


Legends


1st


10


4


Lost Capital One Bowl (Georgia) 31–45


25


23


16


2013


Big Ten


Legends


T-2nd


9


4


Won Gator Bowl (Georgia) 24–19


—


25


—


2014


Big Ten


West


T-2nd


9


4


Lost Holiday Bowl (USC) 42–4512

—


—


—


2015


Mike Riley


Big Ten


West


4th


6


7


Won Foster Farms Bowl (UCLA) 37–29


—


—


—


2016


Big Ten


West


T-2nd


9


4


Lost Music City Bowl (Tennessee) 38–24


—


—


—


2017


Big Ten


West


 


4


5


 


—


—


—



Comparing WSU to Nebraska really isn't an apples to apples comparison.


2008


Paul Wulff


2–11


1–8


 


 


 


 


2009


Paul Wulff


1–11


0–9


 


 


 


 


2010


Paul Wulff


2–10


1–8


 


 


 


 


Pac-12 Conference (2011–present)


2011


Paul Wulff


4–8


2–7


 


 


 


 


2012


Mike Leach


3–9


1–8


6th (North)


 


 


 


2013


Mike Leach


6–7


4–5


5th (North)


L New Mexico


 


 


2014


Mike Leach


3–9


2–7


5th (North)


 


 


 


2015


Mike Leach


9–4


6–3


3rd (North)


W Sun Bowl


 


 


2016


Mike Leach


8–5


7–2


2nd (North)


L Holiday Bowl


 

 
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